The Huntingdon & Broad Top Mountain's Shoup's Run Branch had at least 5 switchbacks. This wasn't the H&BTM's mainline, but it was far more than the indstrial switching operation implied by the O.P. Track charts show that there was no provision for running around trains at the switchbacks, so the engine had to operate from one end or the other. I suspect a lot of cars were moved by gravity during switching moves at the various mines. The number of mines varied considerably over the years, but there were a lot of them. I have always wondered whether there was a problem keeping the crown sheet covered in reverse uphill moves, and have wondered whether the crown sheet on H&BTM's 2-8-0's may have been lower than on other similar engines.
Tom
The Bradshaw Mountian Railroad (subsidiary of Santa Fe) had a series of switchbacks to reach Crown King, AZ. All the photos I've seen would indicate that the locomotive was at the front, pulled into the first switchback stub, reveresed and shoved the train to the second switchback stub, pulled the train to the next, etc. The swithcbacks were paired so that the train was pulling forward after the upper switchback.
The drive to Crown King along the abandoned right-of-way is an amazing drive and highly recommended if you have the time when travelling between Phoenix and Flagstaff.
Ray
All very informative replies. Looking at my operation, there are going to be two stub tracks at the top so I will need to be pushing the train on the last leg. The reply about the position of the firebox is one I wouldn't have thought of. Since the loco will be pushing on two legs and pulling on the other, it seems to me it makes sense to have it facing forward when pushing and running in reverse when pulling. This would mirror the the orientation I saw at Cass.
Thanks to all that replied.
A major consideration at the Hoover Dam end of the US Government Railway was to have the locomotive positioned to switch the stub sidings at Himix. There was no runaround where the rails ended at a 3/4 turn helix, just one switchback turnout to the fan of track at Himix and another to the rails that followed the present road route to dam-top level. Himix was dismantled and removed shortly after construction was completed, but the other rails were still in place when I first saw the site in 1963. At that time they allowed machinery to be lowered to the powerhouses, using the 65-ton capacity cableway that's still in place as of yesterday.
The one photo of Himix I found with a locomotive visible seems to indicate that the trip downhill from Boulder City was made with the locomotive leading, running in reverse. The return trip would have had the locomotive pushing empties upgrade smokebox first.
Due to the truly hairy grade down from Himix level to dam-top level, I assume that the locomotive was on the uphill end of the (probably one or two car) train from Boulder City, which would have placed it on the downhill end through the worst downgrade and the hairpin curve approaching the work area above the Nevada side powerhouse. The original alignment was shortened during construction of the Mike O'Callaghan - Pat Tillman Memorial Bridge, but the general 'feel' of the route is experienced by every visitor to Hoover Dam.
One prototype switchback I encountered in Japan had a double tail track, to allow meets. OTOH, the tail tracks on the switchbacks of the Crown King Extension, in Arizona, were only as long as they needed to be to allow a rather short train to clear the points.
And then there was Higashi-Shiojiri on the JNR Chu-o HonSen - where any train that stopped had to back across the through track, either to clear the switchback spur for another train or to get positioned for its own departure. Tracks were arranged in a double crossover configuration, with a double slip at one corner. When in full operation better than 100 trains a day slammed across the diamond, and a couple of dozen had to stop-reverse-stop before proceeding.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
The original Northern Pacific mainline featured a steep climb that required a switchback operation. IIRC NP added a helper facing backwards on the rear of the mainline train, so went up the switchbacks with an engine on each end. That operation only lasted a few years until the tunnel at Stampede Pass was opened.
IMS, In logging days, before Cass Scenic, the Mower Lumber Company (GC&E too) had runarounds at the switchbacks so engines could be placed on the downhill side of the trains. This would allow the engines to push uphill and pull down hill. Done for safety.
NYBW, there was a mainline switchback on the Louisville and Nashville Railroad at Hagans, in the western tip of Virginia. Trains of 80 or more cars were shoved and pulled over it when connecting to and from the Martin's Fork Branch between Hagans and Loyall, KY and the Cumberland Valley mainline between Norton and Cumberland Gap, VA. Envision two tracks crossing at a near 90 degree angle to the four points of the compass with the north-south track 109 feet below the east-west track. A train bound for Norton from Loyall would come south, passing under the CV main into the stub holding tracks in what was known as Smiley, VA. Leaving whatever portion(s) of the train that would not fit into the "Middle Tail Track" near the top of the grade, the power plus cars would cut off and back up the connecting track towards the west. Once clear, the switch in the Middle Tail track would be lined permit the move to pull eastward onto the CV main. This procedure would be repeated until the train was re-assembled and ready to head east to Norton. Since this was in the heart of coal country, there should be no doubt as to the principal traffic over this route. L&N tacked as many 6 axle units as necessary onto trains, to get the job done. If this interests you, the book "Louisville and Nashville in the Appalachians" by Flanary, Oroszi and McKee, published by Old Line Graphics includes a USGS map of the switchback and its operation in the chapter on the Cumberland Valley Division. The Pentrex video, "Eastern Kentucky Coal" also includes this unique operation.
On the C&O the engines(usually 2-6-6-2s) would push up one leg pull the next leg,push the next and pull until it reached the top..There was no turntables or wyes at the mine..They reversed moved back to the switchback and proceed downgrade through the switchbacks. Unlike logging switchbacks these switchbacks was kept around 2%.
Pity the crew that was force to double up and then double down a switchback.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Obviously with a switchback the engine will be either pushing or pulling the cars at various times when traversing the run up and down the hill.
Generally, from what I have read, the engine would be positioned as much as possible with the firebox end downhill so as to keep the crown sheet covered with water. They also would have the engine on the downhill end of the cars as much as possible for safety reasons in case cars became uncoupled.
Roger Huber
Deer Creek Locomotive Works
I would say it would be about the position of the loco when it reached the top, and what direction the loco and the cars would need to be to do it's job.
With a tourist line, it probably wouldn't matter, but with a working freight railroad, weather coal or timber, it could make a huge difference on dropping off empties and picking up loaded cars, depending on the location of the destination of the train.
Mike.
My You Tube
My trip to Cass was a special photo shoot. The engine started in front facing forward.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I'm not talking about industrial switchbacks which was dealt with recently in another thread. I am talking about railroads which used switchbacks to move entire trains up a mountainside. I am currently building such an operation on my branchline and I was wondering just where the engine should be placed and in which direction it should be facing. Unless there is a runaround on the tail tracks, something I have never seen, the loco will be pushing in one direction and pushing in the other. Our PBS affiliate is having one of the fund raising drives (which seem to come more and more frequently) and one of the programs I just watched was More Trains Around North America. One of the railroads featured was the Cass Mountain Logging Railroad which I rode all the way to the top at least 20 years ago. At the start of the journey, the loco is on the rear of the train but facing forward. It pushes the consist up to the first switchback and then pulls it in the opposite direction with the loco running in reverse. I forget how many switchbacks it went through on its way to the top.
My question is whether this is the typical placement and orientation of the loco on a switchback line. Why not start with the loco at the front end facing forward and then push with the loco running in reverse on the next leg? What would the pros and cons be for doing it that way? Whereas the Cass Mountain operates with Shays, I have a Rivarossi Heisler for my logging operation if that matters.