The E's were probably fully employed hauling mainline trains. Number 3404 was built in October, 1953 as B&O 744, and equipped for passenger service as built. I suspect she went directly into Pittsburgh commuter service when she was delivered, and that corresponds with the retirement of a lot of the commuter P-1ba's and P-1c's. She was renumbered 3404 in January, 1957, and again renumbered 6697 much later, after C&O control.
B&O renumbered its steam engines from four digits to three digits at the beginning of 1957. This made room in the number series for the four digit numbers to be used by diesels, as I have explained above. Steam continued in limited operation west of Cumberland, with the greatest concentration in Ohio during 1957. A few steamers operated in early 1958, and the last official B&O steam run was an excursion handled by Q-4 2-8-2 421 (former 4434) between Cleveland and Holloway, Ohio on May 17, 1958. After that, 421 was seen and photographed moving around the Cleveland yards later in 1958, but never out on the road, and she was officially stricken from the roster in November of 1958.
If Mr. Collins held down a regular Monday through Friday daylight passenger run in the Connellsville - Pittsburgh terrotory in the 1950's, he had a lot of seniority. Over the years, he would have operated a grear variety of B&O steam engines in both passenger and freight service, long before dieselization. We don't know when he took over that particular job. If it was before late 1953, he probably operated P-1 Pacifics on that run. If it was after late 1953, it can be assumed he operated a variety of B&O steam power on other passenger and freight runs. Freight train operations on the Pittsburgh Division were dominated by 2-8-2's and 2-10-2's, with other larger and smaller types being frequently seen.
Sending you a PM.
Tom
It seems that 1957 was the demise of steam for the B&O. The GP7 was purchased in 1957, So I could just assume that the Thomas Collins went from steam to a GP7 in 1957. But B&O still had EMD E types that could have been used. Is it more likely that it went from steam to E type to GP7?
Graymatter
I have only a couple snap shots of 6600 passenger GP7. The four digit numbr tells me it was after the 1956 renumbering. By the time I started taking pictures, steam was gone, and diesels were in the four digit realm.
graymatter ACY I just want to start another puzzle. What preceeded the GP7 #3404 on commuter trains 457 and 458? The P1-c or P1-d?
ACY
I just want to start another puzzle. What preceeded the GP7 #3404 on commuter trains 457 and 458? The P1-c or P1-d?
I can't say for sure. The P-1 was a fairly big Pacific by B&O standards, that was preferred for Mountainous terrain. There were 70 of them, and they used the same boiler as B&O's very numerous Q-1 and Q-7f 2-8-2's (320 and 50 engines in those classes, respectively). There were a number of P-1 rebuildings and modifications over the years. In the following summation, I have tried to boil a very complicated history down to the basics. The P-1d's and P-1da's were the highest development of the class, and they were preferred for longer and heavier runs. They can be identified by their larger oval sandboxes and much larger 13,500 gallon tenders as compared with the original tenders. The P-1aa, P-1ba, and P-1c kept their smaller round sandboxes and 9,500 gallon tenders (same as those used on the Q-1 2-8-2's) and tended to be used on the commuter runs and branchline trains. In the later years, some P-1d's may have been used on commuter runs as the longer routes were discontinued.
One engine blew up in 1933; one was converted to a V-1 4-6-4; and six were converted to T-3 and T-3b 4-8-2's. Of the sixty two that lasted into the 1950's, three P-1da's were retired between 11/1950 and 12/1953; fourteen P-1aa's were retired between 6/1951 and 11/1952; two P-1ba's were retired 12/1953; fourteen P-1c's were retired between 11/1953 and 1956; and twenty nine P-1d's were retired between 11/1953 and 11/1956. So the P-1c's and P-1d's were the last of the P-1 subclasses in service.
ENZOAMPS
Is possible that you have a picture from 1957 or earlier?
I am assumeing the GP7 #3404 was preceeded by a version of the 4-6-2 Pacific.
The http://www.northeast.railfan.net/bo_steam1.html web page doesnt have any 4-6-2 locomoticves listed.
Found a booK; B&O POWER by Lawernece Sagle. He has every 4-6-2 type scrapped or retired before 1957. The 4-6-2 P-1c amd P-1d Heavy Pacifics made it to 1957.
Then I assume it was a 4-6-2 pacific type replaced by the GP7 on the commuter reoute we have been disscusing. Which then makes me wonder, did Thomas Collins park a Heavy Pacific and return to a GP7? Someone in 1957 must have rode a commuter with steam one day and diesel the next.
Just a follow up. I found in my old photo collection, a picture I took of B&O GP7 6600 pulling a couple coaches through Brunswick somewhere in the 1958-1962 era.
I contacted an old friend who lived in Pittsburgh during this period. He says 3404 was the regular engine on commuter trains 547 and 548 for a long time.
Smithfield Station was the B&O's downtown Pittsburgh station for commuter trains, the trains to Buffalo on the former BR&P (discontinued Oct., 1955), and B&O trains to Wheeling, WV (discontinued summer, 1956). The Buffalo trains were handled by P-5 and P-6 4-6-2 Pacifics until discontinuance. The Wheeling trains were also handled by Pacifics until discontinuance, but I'm not sure what classes. It is possible that this may have been the last assignment where P-1d's were regularly used. The Smithfield station was taken out of service as of July, 1957 and replaced by the new Grant Street Station, leaving commuter trains as the only regular users of Grant Street.
Train 547 left Connellsville at 6:20 AM. Your engineman evidently reported and took his engine out of the service area at 5:50 AM, 30 minutes before the train's actual departure time from the Connellsville Station. The train was scheduled to arrive at Pittsburgh's Grant Street Station at 8:15 AM. Engine number 3404 normally left the cars at the station and went alone to Glenwood for servicing. Most likely, the E unit stayed with 3404 through the entire commuter run, and went back to Glenwood with 3404, to be dropped there.
The return run in the afternoon was train 548. Number 3404 would have left the Glenwood service area at 4:20 PM and proceeded to the Grant Street Station to couple to its train for the trip to Connellsville. Train 548 departed Grant Street at 5:20 PM, arriving Connellsville at 7:10 PM.
Trains 547 and 548 were discontinued about a year after the time book, after train 548 tied up at Connellsville on Friday, April 16, 1965.
It looks like the puzzle is a little closer to completion.
(Edited again, as more information showed up)
I feel the same way, Graymatter, there are a few guys on here that just amaze me with their knowledge.
Mike.
My You Tube
I think I've seen pictures of P-1 4-6-2's on the Pittsburgh commuter runs. Most likely, they would have been P-1aa's or P-1c's. The P-1d's had very large tenders and were normally assigned to trains that covered greater distances. You'd probably have to find photos to get specific engine numbers.
Wow
I feel like a rookie working with vetrans...I'll get the coffee.
I can only add this, Thomas Collins got to have all that fun AND get paid $41.38 a day. Which is good money for 1964, he was the first guy on his block in Hazelwood to by a TV. He put it out on the front porch and invited the neighbors.
And a big thanks for all your time.
Ed, do you have anything that would ID what locomotive preceeded the GP7 on the daily run we are discussing? Maybe 1956? Perhaps something that used steam?
In light of Ed's excellent additional information, I have greatly edited my post of this morning. A lot of what I said has been shown to be wrong, and a lot has been shown to be right. The post now seems to be much more accurate.
I KNEW I had it around here somewhere!
Like the vendor yells at the baseball games "Get yer' programs here! Ya' don't know what's goin' on without yer' program!"
Well, now we have the "program"—
That 'll give you enough to digest for a while.
I really need a full-time archivist to sort through and organize all my "stuff"!
Have Fun,
Ed
OK.
A little more detective work shows that the pages are presented in reverse order. The page at far right is the first one, showing December 30, 1963 through January 10, 1964. The next one to the left is January 13-24. Then January 27 - February 7, then the last one (on the left) is February 10 - 14.
Our engineer's normal 5-day work week was Monday through Friday, with weekends off. The train did not operate on Wednesday, January 1, 1964, because it was New Year's day. Normally, 3404 operated alone. Here are the exceptions:
GP7 3404 took E8A 1442 out on Wednesday afternoon, January 15, departing point 511 (Glenwood, according to Ed's post, below) at 4:20 PM, eastbound for point 458 (Connellsville). Number 3404 returned westbound with 1442 the following morning, Thursday, January 16, leaving Connellsvile at 5:50 AM and dropping 1442 at Glenwood. B&O's through Washington to Chicago trains are the only ones likely to be using E units, and those trains operated over Pittsburgh & Lake Erie trackage rights, using the P&LE station in Pittsburgh. That line joined the B&O in the vicinity of Glenwood. I was wrong in concluding 511 was the P&LE station; It was Glenwood. I am revising my guess to say 1442 was removed from a mainline train at Glenwood. I suspect the Connellsville - Pittsburgh commuter train stopped at Glenwood to attach or remove the E units. Most or all B&O commuter trains operated into B&O's own station on the other side of the river. I don't know whether any of B&O's commuter trains operated into the P&LE station. Maybe somebody has a schedule for the commuter trains of that era to confirm this.
On Thursday afternoon, Feb. 6, GP7 3404 left Glenwood with E7A 1427 at 4:20 PM and took it east to Connellsville. If my assumptions above are correct, this means 1427 suffered a road failure and was picked up at Glenwood to be taken to the shop at Connellsville. It was returned westbound by a different crew (possibly over the weekend) and therefore does not show up on this engineman's time book.
On Tuesday morning, Feb. 11, GP7 3404 left the shop at Connellsville with E6B 2409 and took it west to Glenwood. If my assumptions are correct, this means the engine failed over the previous weekend and was taken to Connellsville by a different crew.
These road failures might seem excessive, but bear in mind E6B 2409 was about 24 years old in 1964, and the newest of these units, E8A 1442, was about 14 years old. You can't expect perfection from equipment that old.
That's all I got.
PS: This has been greatly edited, using information supplied by Ed, below. I wanted to delete a lot of erroneous information because I see no point in leaving errors in print for folks to take seriously.
Is it possible the GP7 can pull the commuter train and a dead unit that needs repair?
I have to admit I'm stumped. I don't understand shuttling these E units around, especially since the terminals being discussed are not normally associated with end points for major main line passenger trains, which were the normal assignments of E units.
Here is a link to the Mythical TIME BOOK
http://s350.photobucket.com/user/thomasweekley63/library/?sort=3&page=1
It was probably in the pocket of the Engineer in the Video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAZy58c0gi4
Sorry for any frustration with the links, My son is working with a handicap....me!
Thomas
It might be on the non-live link. I tried, but it says I need to log into facebook to see it, and I don't have a facebook account.
I'm able to see 3404 on the notes, but not 1427 or 1442. I must be doing something wrong.
If your able to use the link to the TIME BOOK you will see #1442 and #1427 are only entered once each. So If I am reading the book correct he took #2409 to (place) 511 and Brought #1442 and #1427 to place #458 as part of the #3404 daily run.
Here is a link to a photo of the TIME BOOK with the #2409 entry. Hope it works!
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=109366322948873&l=27aff0fdbb
or
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=109366322948873&set=a.109366302948875.1073741835.100016265162255&type=3&theater
More answers!
The color quality is less than ideal, which explains your description of the Chinese Red B&O maintenance cars as orange. Chinese Red was a very bright red, also used on B&O cabooses, but not on freight cars.
The poor color quality also explains your conclusion that the very dark F7 ABA set might be PRR. It is actually B&O, and you can just make out the black band on the unit's nose. Many B&O F's had been repainted by 1964, with blue replacing the light gray band. That, plus dirt, explains the dark units. One F7A is identifiable. It is 4632, which was built by EMD in January, 1953 as number 989A. Under B&O's unusual numbering system of the time, 989A was normally paired with sister unit 989. If the two were operated separately, 989A would assume the temporary number 990. In January, 1957, 989A became 4632 in the systemwide renumbering. The 4632 was traded in to EMD in 1969. It has a late revision to the nose, raising the Capitol Dome emblem higher than its original position.
I love a mystery!
However, we still don't know why he was operating passenger units. Is it possible that there coiuld be an error in transcribing the numbers? If the unit identified as 2409 was actually 3409, that would make it a passenger GP9 very similar to GP7 3404. That would be much more plausible than any E unit.
Excellent, Thanks for sharing that.
Now you can see that the engine was in passenger service and the steam generator was working. And the bright red (Chinese Red?) passenger cars (heavyweight) were in wreck-train service. Looks like they were recently painted, too!
Nice old film! It looks like they are running light (engine only) from Glenwood Yard to Grant Street Station to pick up the train for the run to Connellsville. The camera caught a pair of "Speedliners" B&Os name for Budd RDCs!
graymatterThey skip #3404!?
Yes, the manufacturers pick random numbers in most cases.
Good luck on the GP-7 from Ebay!
Regards, Ed
After days of getting kicked around by 'technology' I have found a way to share the 8MM film we rescued from the ravages of time.
The B&O Jan3 1964 Engineer Thomas A Collins driving GP7 #3404.
I dont know the location of 'place 458' where he starts the first morning.
Here is the last living family member;
Thanks Ed
That is a nice GP7 and a good price.
I will put a bid in.
Check this out:
https://www.walthers.com/emd-gp7-w-soundtraxx-r-tsunami-r-sound-dcc-baltimore-ohio-3402-1957-mid-1960s-blue-gray-black
They skip #3404!?
I did mention it back on Friday, Thomas...
"My GP7 is also a Life-Like Proto 2000 and other than the guy with the grip and some slight weathering, it is right out of the box."
It has been out of production for maybe ten or more years but you can still find them at train shows or Ebay. I'm not sure if Athearn Genesis has done the traditional B&O blue & gray but they also offer a nice passenger GP7 with the "torpedo-tube" air reservoirs on the roof.
He used #3404 everyday. An EMD GP7. (have movie footage)
{edit}
Here's one offered from "Down Under" and it is numbered 3406! Pretty darn close!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Life-Like-Proto-2000-B-O-GP-7-w-torpedo-tubes-/292079798099?hash=item4401500753:g:9MoAAOSwls5Y6Ft7
Actually, shipping cost isn't all that bad, considering.
Have Fun!
I am curious about the GP7 #743 you have.
Can you tell me the manufacture and what extras the loco may have?
Thanks Thomas
graymatter I am a little confused now. It would make sense that my grandfather was drivng a commuter train. Why would a frieght train need to leave on the minute and return on the mark? In the January 1964 movie footage he leaves the yard (Connellsville?) and passes some PRR green F type maybe an A-B-A. Next are some orange passenger cars.
I am a little confused now. It would make sense that my grandfather was drivng a commuter train. Why would a frieght train need to leave on the minute and return on the mark?
In the January 1964 movie footage he leaves the yard (Connellsville?) and passes some PRR green F type maybe an A-B-A. Next are some orange passenger cars.
I'm somewhat familiar with Connellsville, but not enough to be confident about the whole story, and I don't know whether the B&O's Pittsburgh commuter operations extended as far east as Connellsville. That is something to find out.
PRR did come into Connellsville from the north, but there are probably other locations between Connellsville and Pittsburgh where PRR F units might be encountered. I suppose it's possible that the PRR units could have been down near Cumberland, since the PRR did have a line down there. But it was a secondary PRR branch, and a big set of F's doesn't seem likely to appear there. Photos I have seen tend to show PRR using two MU'd 1,000 h.p, Baldwin switchers or a single GP on that line.
An E6B unit seems unlikely to be used on a commuter train on the B&O, although other roads did it.