Hi - hoping to tap in to the wealth of knowledge here to help plan my 1920's New England layout.
I wonder what was most common practice on small branch lines when a local would run to the end of the line and have to return. Would all branch lines have turning facilities, or did locos make return runs tender-first as routine? I won't have room for a turning loop or a wye on my shelf layout, but a small turntable would fit. Would that have been the norm in such cases?
Thanks,
Bob
Bob,It would depend on the branch some had a wye,some a armstrong turntable and others nothing.
A branch could have been built as a second thought to appease the local or state government or may have started life as a locally backed short line to give a community rail access and this short line was bought by a larger road and could have all the trimmings line a one or two stall engine house,turntable a water tank and coal tipple..
Another thing is as traffic died on the branch railroads would take track out of service since there was no traffic left beyond a small town or mile post, some times a flood would damage or destroy a bridge and the railroad elected not to repair or replace the bridge.
So,it wasn't uncommon for a steam engine to return tender first on some branch lines..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Bob,
In New England, there was a bit more of a tendency to use Forney's or other style tank engines, so your regional flavor is working in your favor if you want to use that as a solution for motive power.
On many roads, engines assigned to service that included reverse running would often be equipped with rear headlights, sometimes even a pilot, on the rear of the tender. Tenders would sometimes have coal pocket extensions that were narrow enough that the engineer could see past them easily when backing.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
And also how much money the financiers of the rail line were willing to spend.
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Mike Kieran
Port Able Railway
I just do what the majority of the voices in my head vote on.
mlehmanOn many roads, engines assigned to service that included reverse running would often be equipped with rear headlights, sometimes even a pilot, on the rear of the tender. Tenders would sometimes have coal pocket extensions that were narrow enough that the engineer could see past them easily when backing.
As a fun fact some times the head brakeman would ride on the tender deck and watch things and signal the engineer if there was a need.
I've seen photos of cabooses with headlights mounted on the roof and combines that had a headlight mounted either off center or center..I suppose the brakeman would ride on the platform protecting the shove.
Although it wasn't unheard of for a steam engine to work backwards on a branch line that didn't have a turntable or other turning facility at the end of the line, it was much less common than it would be for a line served by a diesel. In fact, many of the early diesel purchases were specifically for serving a branchline so that a turntable could be eliminated. (For example, EMD's BL-1 and BL-2 engines, BL stood for "Branch Line", and were an attempt to modify the FT diesel to serve branch lines, switch yards etc.)
Thanks everyone for the very useful information. I think I'll try to incorporate an Armstrong turntable if I can, because I like seeing turntables in operation, but if not then at least a run-around so that the engine can run tender first at the right end at least!
It's all about what floats your boat. If a line didn't have a runaround at the end (maybe it was truncated), the train might return caboose first.
The crew may have found it easier or quicker to also go caboose first.
How steep is the grade getting up to the end of the line? You might have to back down to keep the water level above the slope sheet.
maxman You might have to back down to keep the water level above the slope sheet.
You might have to back down to keep the water level above the slope sheet.
Hmmm - it's "show my ignorance" time. Can you explain the slope sheet and hence your comment, please?
FowlmereRR maxman You might have to back down to keep the water level above the slope sheet. Hmmm - it's "show my ignorance" time. Can you explain the slope sheet and hence your comment, please?
maxman
I'm guessing that maxman meant to say "crownsheet" which referred to the top of the firebox (inside the boiler). If the waterlevel in the boiler drops low enough to expose the crown sheet, the heat in the firebox will weaken the steel to a point where the steam pressure in the boiler will cause it to rupture. When that occurs, all of the water in the boiler will instantly turn to steam due to the pressure drop. This is known as a boiler explosion.The slope sheet is usually used in reference to either a coal tender or an open hopper, and is, literally, a sloping sheet which directs the coal to the outlet doors in a hopper, or to the deck plate or stoker screw in a tender.
As for steam on branchlines, the CNR had many in southern Ontario where there was a turntable at the end of the line, often simply sitting in a field with no other structures nearby. These were sometimes an armstrong-type, but many had an air-operated mechanism, to which the locomotive's brake hose could be connected, thereby powering the turntable.
Wayne
Thanks, Wayne. That makes a lot of sense. I'd taken "slope sheet" as being tender-related too, and hence couldn't make sense of the comment.
Agreed that a boiler explosion would be a tad unpopular back at the depot!
doctorwayneI'm guessing that maxman meant to say "crownsheet"
Yes, you are guessing correctly, that is zactly what I meant. Thanks for the correction/clarification.
wjstixAlthough it wasn't unheard of for a steam engine to work backwards on a branch line that didn't have a turntable or other turning facility at the end of the line, it was much less common than it would be for a line served by a diesel.
It may surprise you but,it was very common if you add urban industrial branches,coal mine branches,transfer runs,some short turns that served outlaying steel mills,oil refineries,coke plants and power plants-recall that was before unit trains and a transfer job was used for these industries.
Railroads had no issues running tender first if there was a need-only we modelers has issues doing that.
FowlmereRR Thanks everyone for the very useful information. I think I'll try to incorporate an Armstrong turntable if I can, because I like seeing turntables in operation, but if not then at least a run-around so that the engine can run tender first at the right end at least!
Here's a little trick the railroaders would use..If there was no rules stating the engine had to be turn the crew may elect to return tender first or just make a reverse move with combine or caboose lead.
The crew knew that the armstrong turntable may be hard to turn due to the lack of maintenance just like the rest of the branch.
What about the poor engineer's back or neck from being twisted around? No problem..Many engineers made a back rest so they could set sideways in the seat.
Thank You
A lot of it depends on how far the engine had to go and at what speed. A steam engine going backwards generally was limited to 10-20 mph max. If its a 45 mph branch then going backwards would be a problem. If its a 10 mph branch then there is no speed penalty forwards or backwards.
It also depends on that the engine does at the "beginning" of the branch, the junction with the "main line". Does it terminate there or does it continue onto the main line and terminate at a yard on the main line? I can pretty much guaruntee that they would not have a steam engine running backwards for any extended distance on the main line because of the speed penalty. Is there a turning facility at the junction with the main line?
If the branch is short (less than 10 miles) and low speed (15 mph or less) then running backwards is not a big deal. If the branch is long (25-100 miles) and higher speed (25-45 mph) then they would probably have a way to turn the power. If the branch handled passenger service they probably would be more likely to turn the power.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
The Huntingdon & Broad Top Mountain RR in Pennsylvania had several coal branches with switchbacks, steep grades approaching 5%, and no turning facilities. In order to switch the mines at the ends of those branches, the H&BT's 2-8-0's had to spend some time on descending grades. I'm sure they must have been careful to keep the boiler very full, and limit their time on the downhill stretches. It must have been quite a challenge for the fireman.
Tom
ACY The Huntingdon & Broad Top Mountain RR in Pennsylvania had several coal branches with switchbacks, steep grades approaching 5%, and no turning facilities. In order to switch the mines at the ends of those branches, the H&BT's 2-8-0's had to spend some time on descending grades. I'm sure they must have been careful to keep the boiler very full, and limit their time on the downhill stretches. It must have been quite a challenge for the fireman. Tom
C&O had several switchbacks on mine branches in W.Va and Western Virginia. I'm sure you will find switchbacks on CRR,Southern and L&N in the Appalachian coal fields.
dehusman It also depends on that the engine does at the "beginning" of the branch, the junction with the "main line". Does it terminate there or does it continue onto the main line and terminate at a yard on the main line? I can pretty much guaruntee that they would not have a steam engine running backwards for any extended distance on the main line because of the speed penalty. Is there a turning facility at the junction with the main line?
A very good point. The branch I have in mind leaves the "main" part of the layout at a small interchange yard where there is also a depot and a couple of small industries, and a small loco service with turntable. So I could very well just run down the branch from there to deliver the milk or whatever, and reverse back again.
Anyway - thanks to everybody who has contributed. All of this is feeding in to the plan, and when I start building (hopefully middle of next year) I shall journal my efforts here.
BRAKIE wjstix Although it wasn't unheard of for a steam engine to work backwards on a branch line that didn't have a turntable or other turning facility at the end of the line, it was much less common than it would be for a line served by a diesel. It may surprise you but,it was very common if you add urban industrial branches,coal mine branches,transfer runs,some short turns that served outlaying steel mills,oil refineries,coke plants and power plants-recall that was before unit trains and a transfer job was used for these industries. Railroads had no issues running tender first if there was a need-only we modelers has issues doing that.
wjstix Although it wasn't unheard of for a steam engine to work backwards on a branch line that didn't have a turntable or other turning facility at the end of the line, it was much less common than it would be for a line served by a diesel.
Point I was making is, when you read the history of a railroad, you often find something along the lines of "in 1946 the railroad ordered 10 Alco RS-1 road switchers. These diesels allowed the railroad to eliminate six turntables located at the end of various branchlines."
How many branchlines had a turntable to turn the engine in the steam era? I don't know, but it apparently was pretty common. After the switch to diesels, the number went down to zero or very close to it. So the OP's 1920's branchline would very likely have a turntable or some other way to turn the engine - at least, it would be much more likely than if he were modelling 1965 or today.
wjstixHow many branchlines had a turntable to turn the engine in the steam era? I don't know, but it apparently was pretty common. After the switch to diesels, the number went down to zero or very close to it. So the OP's 1920's branchline would very likely have a turntable or some other way to turn the engine - at least, it would be much more likely than if he were modelling 1965 or today.
Stix,There was locally own short lines that didn't have a turntable and beyond a doubt many other branch lines which includes coal branches didn't have a turntable or wye. I've read in several books once a turntable or wye was damage it may not have been repaired or if a bridge was washed out it was not replaced.
After a flood took out the wye at Carter, Ky on C&O's "K&F" branch the stone train had to back 19 miles to Garrison, Ky. C&O elected not to replace the wye due to the diminishing stone traffic and by 1941 the branch was abandon.
Like you I don't know how many branch lines lack turntables but,I don't think it would be a small number since a lot of those branch lines wasn't making money in the 20/30s and was more then likely placed on the deferred maintenace plan...
Here's a hypothetical:
Your branch joins the mainline at point A, and has four towns on it: B, C, D, and E. Normally, the daily local runs from A to E, turns on the wye or turntable at E, and returns home to A. On Tuesday, there is work to be done at B, C, and D, but no cars to be dropped off or picked up at E. The railroad has a choice. On some lines, the engine and caboose will run deadhead to the end of the line at E, turn, and return. This might be necessary if there is some other factor. For example, maybe the only water tank is at E and the tender needs to be topped off. If there are no special reasons like that, it is more likely that the train will terminate at D, reverse direction without turning the engine, and return.
It's all a matter of practicality. With very few exceptions, steam engines and diesels are equally efficient in either directions, although there may be speed restrictions for reverse operation because of an engine's ride characteristics. On most steam locos, forward visibility wasn't much better than rear visibility. Most steam engineers operated their engines by peering ahead or to the rear from the cab side window. Of course diesel cab units have poor rearward visibility.
FWIW, I have a Rock Island 1923 Iowa Division (east/west main plus the Keokuk to Des Moines line and branches) time table. There are 7 branch lines listed. The shortest is a 5 mile stub. The rest are from 11 to 20 miles long, one having both ends junction points on other RI main routes.
The short stub has no turning facility (On the schedule page the ett does not specifiy wye or turntable, only turning facility) at either end station. Of the 6 remaining branches, all but one has a turning facility at each end station. One only has a turning facility at the end of the branch. That branches' jct point on the main line is 1.5 miles from a station that has a turning facility, and is also a jct point for another branch. The one branch that has a jct point at both ends has a turning facility at each end.
Jeff
ACY On Tuesday, there is work to be done at B, C, and D, but no cars to be dropped off or picked up at E. The railroad has a choice. On some lines, the engine and caboose will run deadhead to the end of the line at E, turn, and return. This might be necessary if there is some other factor. For example, maybe the only water tank is at E and the tender needs to be topped off. If there are no special reasons like that, it is more likely that the train will terminate at D, reverse direction without turning the engine, and return.
Tom,The engineer and fireman would judge the amount of water in the tender's tank and decide if they have enough to return and if its less then 40 miles and they still have 3/4s of a tank off they go home.Now if its more then 40 miles and they have a 1/2 tank then off they go to E without the caboose-no need to make unneeded work. The head brakeman will go with the engine.
As far as tender first--guess who gets the privilege of riding the deck of the tender? Yup,the head brakeman. The engineer will install his home made backrest and ride sideways while leaning out the window but,he knows the brakeman will signal him if there is a need. Also the head brakeman will be looking ahead while the fireman attends to his fire even if the engine has a mechanical stroker he will still need to check it from time to time.
As far as a diesel turn your seat around or side ways I've seen it done both ways. When running LHF then the fireman(later the head brakeman) will be looking ahead and see things the engineer can't from his side.
Larry, FWIW I lived the first 48 years of my life across the street from a branch line of a railroad. The line had a turntable at the end from the time it was built in the 1910's until the railroad started buying diesels in the early 1940's, when the turntable was removed. Since then, the line has ended in a run-around track, so I grew up watching FM and Baldwin diesels running backwards half of the time. (This was the Richfield-Bloomington MN "High Line" referenced a couple of times in MR under the current operator, Progressive Rail.)
The OP's layout is set in the 1920's, so I think it would be more likely to have a turntable than if it was set in say 1970. That doesn't mean not having a turntable would be wrong, just that it might be more typical to have one in the 1920's than not. Might depend on when the line was built - a line built in 1879 that was very busy in the 1880's - 1900's might still have it's old 'armstrong' turntable in 1925, even if there isn't as many trains anymore.
The NP Shepherd (MT) branch just east of Billings was 14 miles long and had a wye close to the end of the branch. Milwaukee's Decorah (IA) apparently didn't have a turning facility, but was only 10 miles long - the line ended in downtown Decorah and there wasn't much room for a turning facility.
There are many examples of turning apparatus or none at the end of branch lines. What must be considered (besides space for turning apparatus, both on real and model railroads) is the economics of putting these facilities in.
Does it pay for the railroad to put in these facilities. Does it pay to run the engine backwards at a lower speed in wages, fuel, water capacity, etc. In many cases, it wasn't the passenger traffic that paid for the passenger train but the mail that it carried (or the milk express cars).
Whether we like it or not, it's all about the $Benjamins$. A main reason that people put turntables or wyes in is purely personal preference (and there's nothing wrong with that).
Once again, thanks to everybody who has contributed their time and knowledge to this. I think I've now got a very good idea of all the considerations to be made, and I shall plan accordingly.
The financial aspect was one which I'd not really thought about too much but realise that it must have been very important to the owners of the railroads in question. Certainly the President of my ficticious line was a real meanie, which is why there will be so much "repurposed" equipment bought cheap from other railroads !!
Cheers,