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Tallulah Falls railroad

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Tallulah Falls railroad
Posted by steveiow on Thursday, March 09, 2017 10:23 AM

I would like to know if anyone can point me to information about-

track plans

passenger car drawings

and was the coach used a Jim Crow car?

I have a couple of books about this road and know all the net sites,so far,if anyone has any info on the above I would be most grateful.

Also,has this road ever featured in a model magazine?

Thanks

Steve

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Posted by mbinsewi on Thursday, March 09, 2017 5:26 PM

Looks like an interesting project.  It looks like two major highways, I think 441 and 23 pretty much take the same right of way that the railroad did.  The scenery would be great, especially if you could include part of the Gorge.  I followed it for a little on Google satelite, and didn't really see anything left of the rr grade.  That's why I suspect the highways cover it now, along with heavy vegitation.

Given the location and time period, I'm sure the passenger cars were used just as you mentioned, but best not to elaberate on that topic in here, and stick to the railroad, and it's importance to opening up parts of Georgia, and what a neat layout it would make, along with the locos and rolling stock.

I'm sure I didn't find anything on a quick search that you haven't already seen.

Mike.

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Posted by BigDaddy on Thursday, March 09, 2017 6:20 PM

mbinsewi
Given the location and time period, I'm sure the passenger cars were used just as you mentioned, but best not to elaberate on that topic in here

History is history, there is no need to sterilize it.  Jefferson took his slave to Paris and William Clark of Lewis & Clark fame, took his to the Pacific.   The railroad pre-dates the Civil War.  I would imagine a slave holder would have traveled on the railroad with his slave. I don't expect they would sit together.

Post Civil War and pre Rosa Parks I guess there were Jim Crow cars, though I hadn't previously seen that referenced or given it much though.  George Pullman's porters were universally called 'George'  You can see that in one of the Thin Man movies. [After The Thin Man, I think.  I just discovered there are more Thin Man Movies than I ever knew]  I'll bet the interiors were pretty sparten but the exteriors were probably just like all the other cars in the train.  Here is a RPO I think,

According to abandonedrails, you needn't look beyond 1914 for passenger car examples  Passenger service, sparsely patronized since the 1920s, ended abruptly in May of 1946, when a truck struck a train at a crossing, doing $100 worth of damage to the locomotive, and shattering windows onto passengers in the single 1914 vintage passenger carriage in service.

http://www.abandonedrails.com/Tallulah_Falls_Railroad

Much like today, infrastructure upkeep was lacking and the railroad also suffered two trestle collapses.  

Henry

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Posted by mbinsewi on Thursday, March 09, 2017 9:00 PM

I wasn't trying to "sterilize" Henry, just don't want it to be "locked" before it gets started.    You know how it can get in here.

Mike

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Posted by BigDaddy on Thursday, March 09, 2017 9:36 PM

No offense intended.  It can be a little ......well locked is probably as good a word as any. 

I grew up in the 50's and 60's and if there are any afro american members here I would like to know what happened on trains in the 50's and 60's.  I remember segregation at public swimming pools and amusement parks, but not on pubic transportation at least where I grew up in Baltimore.

I went to NYC on the PRR in the late 50's.  I am not sure I would have noticed, but as far as I can remember, I don't remember any afro passengers nor do I remember a Jim Crow car at the back.  Surely Afro Americans  must have traveled to NYC back then.  Similarly I remember the subway tokens we bought for .....what a quarter? but I don't remember segregation in NYC subway cars in that era. 

I'm not saying it didn't happen, I am saying I was a kid and didn't notice.  I'd be interested in knowing what did really happen.

Henry

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Posted by ACY Tom on Friday, March 10, 2017 9:22 AM

By the late 1950's, Jim Crow was mostly gone from Interstate transportation, at least in the legal sense. Since the practice was deeply ingrained in the consciousness of many Americans, and had been for generations, it was slow to disappear entirely in all of its manifestations. There were many instances where railroad employees found themselves enforcing new practices that certain customers didn't like. 

Before segregation was outlawed, passengers were separated into separate cars, or separated by a divider within an individual car. There may have been other variations, depending on the requirements of the Jim Crow laws of the individual States. Jim Crow Combines usually had the baggage section in the middle to serve as a divider. In those days, segregation was strictly maintained in the dining cars and sleepers as well. 

In many areas of the segregated South, stations had been built with duplicate waiting rooms and rest room facilities for the different races, and those stations continued to be used for a long time. The traditional arrangement often had the ticket office in the middle, with separate waiting rooms on each side. Often, the "colored" section was smaller and of a lower quality than the "white" section. In such cases, the "colored" section was often shut down or converted to some other use such as offices or storage. Duplicate water fountains were removed or made available to all.

The film "The Great Locomotive Chase" was made on the Tallulah Falls. I think the lineside sets, including stations, were built for the movie. I don't recall seeing any actual Tallulah Falls stations or equipment being shown in the movie, but the scenery is great.

Tom  

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Posted by BigDaddy on Friday, March 10, 2017 5:49 PM

Thanks Tom, I think that is important info to know and probably new information for our youngest members. 

Henry

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Posted by ACY Tom on Friday, March 10, 2017 9:41 PM

Yes, it's a sensitive topic, and it's one that most modern Americans find disturbing and embarrassing. The forums are here for enlightened discussion. As long as we stick to the facts and avoid inflammatory rhetoric, the moderators will have no reason to lock this. Whether we approve or not, it's history.

I was raised in the North and moved to a Southern State for a while during the turbulent 1960's. The changes were jarring and disconcerting for a lot of older folks who had grown up to think of the old ways as the only natural way to think and behave. Change can be hard, but if you're not changing you're probably dead. Also, we often forget that intolerant ideas were not and are not found only in the South. Not by any means. 

As Bob Dylan said, "He not busy bein' born is busy dyin'".

Tom 

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Posted by Mike Kieran on Saturday, March 11, 2017 9:01 AM

Amen. There were race issues in the north as well. Jackie Robinson was needed by northern baseball fans.

My mother had a culture shock when the US Air Force transferred my father from southern Italy (where he met & married my mother) to Sumter, SC. She was 7 months pregnant with my sister, didn't speak English yet, and didn't know about​Jim Crow laws.

I would like to kitbash a Jim Crow combine just so that my wife can use it to illustrate to her students while reading To Kill a Mockingbird or the Scotsboro Boys lessons. History is history.

Where would I get plans for a Jim Crow car?

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Mike Kieran

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Posted by DSchmitt on Saturday, March 11, 2017 9:31 AM

Mike Kieran
I would like to kitbash a Jim Crow combine just so that my wife can use it to illustrate to her students while reading To Kill a Mockingbird or the Scotsboro Boys lessons. History is history. Where would I get plans for a Jim Crow car?

{edit- I was mistaken - there were  purpose built "Jim Crow" cars}

Jim Crow cars were not specially designed cars.  They were cars designated for use by non-whites.  There were often older cars and might not be as well maintained.   There were also cars with segregated accomodations.  Some had partitions between the sections, but others had just curtains or maybe a rope, or even just a sign.

February 2001 Trains Magazine has an article about Jim Crow on the railroads.

I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.

I don't have a leg to stand on.

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Posted by steveiow on Saturday, March 11, 2017 4:34 PM

Hmm,I seem to have started something unintentionaly here.

The photo of the RPO seems to read Southern in the letter board,so,I assume it was a standard Southern design,the coach which accompanies this train(not shown) is different.

I still need the plans tho'.

For a Jim Crow coach,there is a Georgia Railroad one on the fallen flags site (and no doubt many others) and Dr.Nicholas Muff drew plans for a KCS Osgood Bradley type in an edition of R.M.C.about the time of the Trains article.

Thanks

Steve

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Posted by Mike Kieran on Saturday, March 11, 2017 5:13 PM

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I meant model plans or kitbash instructions. Thanks for the article reference. I remember it now. I forgot that article.

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Posted by ACY Tom on Saturday, March 11, 2017 5:34 PM

I can't say for sure, but I would hesitate to say there were absolutely no specially designed Jim Crow Car cars. When the General toured the USA in the 1960's, she routinely carried a former L&N Jim Crow car. I was under the impression that car had been built for the purpose, but perhaps it was a shop modification. I understand it still exists in a Museum. I believe the location is New Haven, KY. Somebody can correct me if I am wrong.  

The book Rails Through Dixie by John Krause and H. Reid (Golden West, 1965) has photos of Jim Crow combines on the Wadley Southern and Sylvania Central. Lucius Beebe's Mixed Train Daily (Howell-North, 1947) also has several photos of Jim Crow combines on a variety of lines including the Sandersville, Louisville & Wadley, Wadley Southern, and Sylvania Central. The Talbotton's single coach is pictured, It shows no external evidence of having separate sections, although it probably did. Both of these books are long-out-of-print classics that can sometimes be found at railroad shows, used book dealers, or on ebay. I didn't see any Tallulah Falls photos in any of these books, nor in H. Reid's Extra South. 

I suspect you could build a credible Jim Crow combine using a LaBelle coach kit, or one of the old Ambroid (Northeastern) kits, the latter being out of production (I think). There are also plastic cars that could provide a good starting point. 

Please keep in mind the fact that this is a very sensitive topic. I recall a bit of controversy over the depiction of a Confederate Battle Flag on a model railroad several years ago. It was presented in historical context, but it still made a lot of people uneasy. It wouldn't be hard to give offense if you're not very careful of people's sensibilities. While many people think this is ancient history, it is very real to many good Americans who experienced this humiliation, and remember it vividly. Frankly, I'm not sure I would feel very good about getting into the subject. I'll stick with modeling the North, which had failings and troubles enough of their own. 

Tom

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Posted by Mike Kieran on Saturday, March 11, 2017 7:38 PM

There were no segregated subways in NYC. The neighborhoods, on the other hand, were a different story. A lot of northerners really were unaware of the Jim Crow laws. My father was raised in NYC and was taken aback by the way that things were done in the south when he was stationed in New Orleans.

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Posted by mbinsewi on Saturday, March 11, 2017 7:56 PM

You might also try the Rabun County and Habersham County Historical Societies.  It seem like there a lot of photographs that show up on a search of railroad that come from each.

Mike.

 

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Posted by 7j43k on Saturday, March 11, 2017 7:59 PM

I doubt there were any combines built as Jim Crow cars.  They could, of course, be assigned to that service.  This also applies to coaches.  One can guess who got the "less better" cars.

I've seen plans of coaches with "a few extra bathrooms" and a divider of some sort. THOSE I believe were specifically built as Jim Crow cars.  The problem with an as-built Jim Crow car is that you can't exactly undo it.  Also, the extra bathrooms take up revenue space.

I recently read a very good book about black migration from the South to the North in the first half of the 20th Century.  Riding the rails surely had a lot of picky little rules for black people in many states.  I use little in the sense of petty, not neglible.

 

Ed

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Posted by mbinsewi on Saturday, March 11, 2017 8:12 PM

Something else I just found by googleing jim crow railroad cars.  Give it a look.  Most had the baggage area in the center.  It seems there were cars actually built for this.

Mike.

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Posted by 7j43k on Saturday, March 11, 2017 11:08 PM

mbinsewi

Something else I just found by googleing jim crow railroad cars.  Give it a look.  Most had the baggage area in the center.  It seems there were cars actually built for this.

Mike.

 

 

"Most had the baggage area in the center."

 

Please support your assertion.  How many were there?  How many had the baggage area in the center?

 

"It seems there were cars actually built for this."

 

Yes.  That is what we are saying.  But you seem surprised, even though you just made an assertion about ratios of various cars in that type of service.

Please  explain this apparent contradiction.

 

 

Ed

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Posted by mbinsewi on Saturday, March 11, 2017 11:49 PM

OK Ed,  I didn't count, just what I seen on a quick search.  And I know it was brought up that "maybe" cars were built for this.

I made no "assertion" about any percentages, other than "most", being what I seen on my search.  And what do you mean by "contradiction"? 

WOW, I guess you have to be REALLY carefull on what you post.  I'am soooooo sorry "your honor".  Smile, Wink & Grin 

I think this thread should get back to the interesting and scenic area this railroad went through, and it's operation, and not the jim crow thing.  We all know the history, and it is history, as what I have said from the beginning.

This railroad went through some beautiful country, with lots of wood trestles, considering the total length of the line.

Geeez!

Mike.

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Posted by Colorado Ray on Sunday, March 12, 2017 12:01 AM

Ed, the Louisville & Nashville for one had numerous specially built Jim Crow cars with the baggage compartment in the middle.  A 2010 article mentioned 30 examples still existed from cars built in the 1880s.  I'm sure many other southern lines had the same.  The L&N ran their Jim Crow cars into the mid 1950s on mixed train service.

Ray

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Posted by pajrr on Sunday, March 12, 2017 7:41 AM

The guy asked a question about the consist of a train that ran years ago. It suddenly turned into a political forum. Let's see if we can anger more people. I have pix of Lackawanna Ferries that ran from NJ to NY. The boats are clearly labelled Men on one side, Women on the other side. Another form of segregation. I will be interested to see how people respond to this totally irrelevant fact of a time that is past. It is history people. You are free to ignore it if you wish. But don't try to force the world to erase it because you don't agree with it..

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Posted by 7j43k on Sunday, March 12, 2017 10:40 AM

pajrr

The guy asked a question about the consist of a train that ran years ago. It suddenly turned into a political forum. 

I see no political statements in this topic.

 

Ed

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Posted by ACY Tom on Sunday, March 12, 2017 11:51 AM

7j43k

 

 
pajrr

The guy asked a question about the consist of a train that ran years ago. It suddenly turned into a political forum. 

 

 

I see no political statements in this topic.

 

Ed

 

Jim Crow is a sensitive topic. The Tallulah Falls as a modeling subject is not. Frankly, nobody here has established whether the TF used cars that could be described as Jim Crow cars. There is no reason for offense as long as the difference is understood. 

Tom

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Posted by steveiow on Sunday, March 12, 2017 3:12 PM

Thank you for all the comments-I still need the plans!!!!

Mike-another Dr Muff drawing,this time for a divided coach built for KCS by ACF in 1956,6 cars,32 and 28 seats,seperate bathrooms,divided by a glass partition.

This appeared in the late lamented (by me anyway) Jan. 2003 Mainline Modeler.

Steve

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Posted by pajrr on Monday, March 13, 2017 1:04 PM

A railroad museum has a divided car that they are restoring. They have a video tour of the car here.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7Vfv-1EX9M

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Posted by mbinsewi on Monday, March 13, 2017 1:42 PM

Have you checked out the Rabun County Historical Society?  I didn't see any plans, but they have quite a few pictures in their gallery.  Scroll down on the home page, the links are on the right side.

http://www.rabunhistory.org/

Mike.

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Posted by Mike Kieran on Tuesday, March 21, 2017 7:58 AM

There's a link to the Tallulah Falls Railroad Museum:

http://tallulahfallsrailway.wixsite.com/tallulah-falls-rr.

I finally found it after remembering seeing it while checking out 70 tonners.

 

Another place to try is Abandoned Rails:

http://www.abandonedrails.com/Tallulah_Falls_Railroad

 

The Rail Georgia website:

http://www.railga.com/tallu.html

 

and there's someone who is modelling the Tallulah Falls Railway:

http://tfrr.blogspot.com/

 

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Mike Kieran

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Posted by Beach Bill on Friday, March 31, 2017 1:13 PM

Sorry, I have been away from the site for a couple weeks or I would have provided this sooner:

I'd like to get back to addressing the OP's original request for information on this line and am very surprised that through all of this no one had mentioned the book:

The Tallulah Falls Railroad: A Photographic Remembrance by Brian A. Boyd  (1998, Fern Creek Press, PO Box 1322, Clayton, GA  30525).   Several small track maps are included.  

While this small volume doesn't have scale drawings of rolling stock, it would seem to be a highly valuable resource to anyone modeling the line.    And... as I flip through the photos of this text I did not notice any obvious Jim Crow cars with the center baggage compartment.

Bill

With reasonable men, I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter, nor waste arguments where they will certainly be lost. William Lloyd Garrison
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Posted by steveiow on Friday, March 31, 2017 2:33 PM

Gents,thank you all for the replies-sorry for my late one,life intervened!

I have the books and seen the websites which have provided a ton of info,but still no stock or track plans.

I live in hope.........

Steve

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Posted by mbinsewi on Friday, March 31, 2017 3:18 PM

Steve, I don't think you will find track plans, unless maybe you visit the area, museums, court houses, etc. and see what may be in print, or in archives that just isn't on line. If you want to model it, I think all the info, websites, books, etc., etc., would be plenty of info for pieceing it together yourself,  along with the modelers license aspect.

Car plans, probably never excisted.  A coach and/or baggage car was probably just repurpased, and remodeled as needed.  I do remember seeing some car plans on the many Google searches I did, while getting involved with your project, but they weren't TFRR cars.  The video that is a few post back, gives a good look, but again, it's not a TFRR car.

Good luck STEVE, if you find anything, please share with us.

Mike

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