Mid Train Passenger Helpers

[NWP SWP]

Sorry about that wjstix, I meant to do it but I just completely forgot. Thanks Ed for time of the scene.

[gmpullman]

wjstix

Cascadenor - I would like to know approximately how many minutes into the DVD the scene is, so I can watch for it when I watch the DVD

Follow up...

For the OP and anyone else interested the particular scene begins at 29:01 and as myself and others have suggested, some trains on the Putnam and Harlem Divisions were combined at XC Tower, Putnam Junction (Lake Mahopac) Trains from Sedgwick and Golden Bridge.

The narrator clearly states this in several following scenes as well. 

  For the most part, commuters wouldn't care much about a Lima "LRS-1200" cut into their train as there wasn't so much of a need to pass from car-to-car as there would be in a long-distance train.

I'll have to dig out some employee TTs and see if there is any mention of the operation. Might be a fun aspect to model. Again, I have seen this practice with RDCs on more than one occasion.

Regards, Ed

[NWP SWP]

There are actually SIX (6) parts to the Green Frog Productions "Golden Twilight of Postwar Steam" series go on the GFP website and click THE STORE then All DVD's then  Steam the Bluray versions will be at the top and the regular DVDs are about halfway down; I'm not sure if they're sold as a set. And lastly the scene I'm speaking of is on Part 4.

[gmpullman]

wjstix

BTW, Green Frog now offers a set with all four "Golden Twilight" DVDs, cheaper than buying all 4 separately (like I did ). I thought they were all very well done.

Stix,

Is this the set you are refering to? In the description it only lists Golden Twilight of Steam Parts 1, 2, & 3.

http://www.greenfrog.com/7PAK_Stm40s50s60s.shtml

It is difficult to sort out Green Frog's catalog of DVDs. I hate to buy a "collection" that may have what I already own... and NOT have what I'm looking for.

Thanks, Ed

[BRAKIE]

I dunno guys,but,I recall there was strict ICC rules and PRR operating and safety rules when it came to switching passenger cars with passengers aboard.

I can't help but wonder what ICC and railroad rules would govern such a operation?

A pusher or mid train helper was and is a dangerous operation  for a freight train since there are things that could go wrong including human error.

[wjstix]

 Having a helper on the front or rear to get over a mountain grade or something wouldn't be that unusual for a long passenger train. Having the 'helper' in the middle is the odd part.

Cascadenor - I would like to know approximately how many minutes into the DVD the scene is, so I can watch for it when I watch the DVD. BTW, Green Frog now offers a set with all four "Golden Twilight" DVDs, cheaper than buying all 4 separately (like I did ). I thought they were all very well done.

[grinnell]

Somewhere in my library of railroad books I have a picture of a Northern Pacific passenger train with a steam pusher on the rear. Justification for me to not worry about front couplers on my NP passenger service Challengers and  Northerns. Gives me an excuse to keep Pacifics for passenger helper service in addition to the Mallet freight helpers. (As an aside, by using Intermountain wheel sets and using a drop of Labell oil, I was able to improve the terrible rolling quality of Walthers HO passenger cars enough to allow an Athearn Challenger to drag 12 cars up a 2.2% grade with 32 inch radius curves without a helper. But, fourteen passenger cars and a helper is more fun.)

Grinnell

[tomikawaTT]

I did experience a passenger pusher, back in 1961, on the San-Yo Hon-sen west of Hiroshima.  C62 (4-6-4) on the point, D52 (2-8-2) pushing.  The next time I traveled that route it was electrified.

Looking at the telephone-book-size Japan Travel Bureau master timetable, there were a number of schedules where one train splits into two, to two separate destinations, at some junction point.  There are others where a long train gets shortened at some intermediate point, part continuing on, the rest either laying over or returning to the point of origin spliced with a short train to form a longer train - different short train from the original.  The trains are usually EMU, but DMU are sometimes involved.

I think calling DMU or EMU, where some or all cars have powered axles, "Mid-train helpers," would be stretching the point beyond its elastic limit.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[NWP SWP]

I see, that would pose a problem!

[cuyama]

Mid-train (or pusher) helpers were very rare on passenger trains because the buff and draft forces as slack ran in and out would be pretty uncomfortable for riders in cars between the engines. Railroads were much more likely to run a passenger train in multiple sections instead.

Not to mention that passengers couldn't move between cars to reach diners or lounges, for example.

[gmpullman]

wjstix

Besides the dead-in-tow idea, only other things I can think of would be something like a local or commuter line that split in two at some point.

I was thinking along those lines, too.

I recall a promotional film by Budd for the RDC where a run was split like that, it may have been on the New Haven at Buzzard's Bay? I also recall a NYC passenger (commuter) train that would tow an RDC for part of the run, maybe to Yonkers? then the RDC would continue the run.

Still, not a "mid-train helper" by any means. More details needed. For twenty bucks I'm going to buy the DVD from Froggy...

Ed

[Bob Schuknecht]

[wjstix]

cascadenorthernrr

Hi there all, I was watching Green Frog Productions Golden Twilight of Postwar Steam Part 4 and I saw a NYC passenger train with a diesel on the head then another mid train! Was this common?

 

Interesting, I don't recall seeing that on the DVD, I'll have to take a look. How many minutes into the DVD is the scene?

 

It would be exceedingly rare to have a mid-train "helper" on a passenger train. If a passenger train were that long, they'd run a second section of the train instead. Besides the dead-in-tow idea, only other things I can think of would be something like a local or commuter line that split in two at some point. The two trains might run together until the junction where they split in two, then rejoined on the way back to 'the city'. I suppose you could have had a situation where a diesel died, and it and it's train were being rescued by another train?

[gmpullman]

Steven

Is there a way you can pause the video, hit "Print Scrn." save the image and post it?

I have many Green Frog NYC videos but not that one. Is the "middle" unit actually working or in-tow? Lots of equipment was stored in Harmon and Mott Haven. Is it possible they are on a siding, on layover? What engines were they? RS-2s? E units, Geeps?

Did the narrator, John Osgood, mention a location? All these details would help. A lot of commuter trains on the Putnam, Harlem Divisions, B&A and the West Shore in New Jersey were laid-up on the weekends and were grouped together so the steam lines could be joined together. There could have been a "ferry-move" involved with shuffeling some of these trains around.

Some trains on the Harlem and the Putnam Division were combined/split at some points during their runs.

Regards, Ed

[j. c.]

don't know about diesels but while not common it did happen with steam i have in one of my books a photo of a rio grand passenger train headed for leadville with two in front one mid train and two pushers.most of the time though it was only head end power.

[Colorado Ray]

I would think that would be very rare.  Of all my rail videos I've never seen a passenger helper anywhere other than ahead of the road engine.  I'd imagine that there are FRA regulations against helpers behind passenger cars.  Is it possible that the engine you saw was dead and being moved?  

Ray

[NWP SWP]

Hi there all, I was watching Green Frog Productions Golden Twilight of Postwar Steam Part 4 and I saw a NYC passenger train with a diesel on the head then another mid train! Was this common?