Signals

[tstage]

Hi Everyone!

I have a ton of questions about track signals.

I am currently working on my first HO layout that I wi***o make historically accurate. My layout is based along the New York Central near or at a small servicing and freight stop, in the early 40's - i.e. early steam-diesel transition era.

To help you visualize my layout, I'll try and describe it to you. (Sorry I don't have a picture to post for you.) For simplicity sake, imagine looking at a large 4 x 8' oval with the long (8') side of the layout facing you.

On this oval I have one (1) 60-degree crossing and two (2) diverging tracks (from turnouts). At the bottom right corner, one track crosses over the mainline at a 30-degree angle and continues on before diverging into the mainline, up near the left center, on the opposite side of the table. The other diverging track (or turnout) is located at the entrance of my yard, right off the main line, on the track closest to you. Does that all make sense?

What kind of electric track signals would have been used on the NYC during this time period and track location? Semaphores (two- or thee-position)? Target? Block? Searchlight? Dwarf? All of the above? None of the above?

And in what configurations? Would they have been warning signals on BOTH the main line AND crossing line, or just the crossing line? How about the main line and diverging track?

Sorry for the deluge of questions. I'm somewhat a newbie and ignorant to all this but I really want to learn. Maybe there's a good reference book or web page that you can recommend on signals that would address some of these issues.

Anyway, thanks for your input. [:D] I look forward to hearing what all have to say.

Tom

[csxengineer98]

the easiest thing i can say..since in haveing a hard time picturing your layout in my head...is this....
look at the signals for what they are..they are traffic controll devices almost like the red lights for cars on the roads..... so..when you look at your layout..put yourself in the engineers seat.... look at the track and pretend your running your train down it... now...anywhere you have a track that comes into or out off or crosses over that track your on...(other then in the yard) you would want someway of telling your train..or another train to stop befor you hit one another...at the places where you would want to stop to keep from haveing a ancident... you want a signal thier.... and you want to have one for each direction that a train can traval ...so if you have a main line with a switch to another main line..you want to put a signal just befor the points of the switch ...and then 2 more at the clearnce points of the turnout... and you want them to face the direction of oncomeing trains...... this type of signal is know in the railroad world as an absolute..meaning..if its red....you better not go past it..unless you have permistion form the dispatcher.....now....to let the train know that it might have to stop at a signal..you need what is know as an intermediat signal. some distance befor the signal... they are usely anywhere from 2 to 3 miles from the absolut signal i mentend above.... t(this is for mainline railroading)
now as far as signal location for your yard.... to keep is simple... i would just put 1 signal on the track that will be comeing out of the yard onto the mainline...that signal tells you when you can come out onto the main.... but if you want to get elaborat... you can put a signal at the end of each yard track.. on the end where it enters the mainline...
clear as mud isnt it..lol
but if what i said makes no cence..and went over your head... find a club near by and ask some questions... also...thier are some books out thier on railroad signaling...and i think MR did a write up a few years ago on signal systems and how they work... might want to check into that also....
now that i have your head spinning...ill shut up now...lol
csx engineer

[tstage]

csx engineer,

Thanks for your input! It was helpful. It pretty much confirmed what I had thought to be true about signaling. It's the type of signals (and their variations) and understanding the hows and whys that mystifies me more than anything. (I just read last night that we owe our use of the automobile traffic signal primarily to the railroad; not the other way around.)

I will take you're advice on the MR articles. Someone else had suggested that and books from Morning Sun publications, which have I used as a reference in the past. Morning Sun book have great pictures of the various aspects of railroading. Unfortunately, they are a bit pricey on the 'ol wallet.

Sorry I didn't do a better job describing my layout. Pictures, in this case, are definitely more preferable than a wordy description. Thanks again for getting back to me. [:)]

Tom

[Anonymous]

The New York Central signals I remember had three lights, in a triangular arrangement, mounted on a circular target. Oregon Rail Systems makes them as their part #116, and part #134 (2 signal heads on one mast). Tomar Industries also makes them as their part #H-855, and part #H-865 (2 signal heads on one mast).

Two signal heads on one mast will be appropriate for interlocking and Centralized Traffic Control applications. They can provide a greater number of signal aspects than just one head. For example, green-over-red may indicate "Clear", i.e., "Proceed ", and red-over-green may indicate "Diverging Clear", i.e., "Proceed on diverging route at prescribed speed."

The track arrangements you desribe for your layout will permit conflicting movements of trains which could result in collisions at crossings or at turnouts. So what you will be doing is providing for a form of "interlocking" to prevent such collisions. The signals described above would be a good match for your requirements.

[BR60103]

One bit of arcane information:
(In Canada, at least) interlocking signals have all the heads on the same side of the post. Block signals have the heads on opposite sides -- top on the left, bottom on the right as you look at it. I think the top head was a "home" signal for the next block, the lower head was a "distant" for the following block.

[cefinkjr]

The type of signal in use on the Central in the 40s would depend on where you were. Remember that the NYC was a BIG railroad made up of lots of smaller roads or purchased pieces of other roads that had been absorbed into 'the system' over time. Each of those others had their own ideas about how a signal system should be set up. NYC would eventually replace those other signal systems with NYC standards but that took time.

I have an NYC employee rule book -- probably the last version before the Penn Central merger -- and it shows just about every imaginable signal type including semaphores and color position signals (like the B&O's). By the time this rule book was first issued though, most NYC signals were searchlight signals with one light on each signal 'head' with a maximum of 3 heads on any one signal mast. Depending on the circumstances, each head might display one to 3 colors and green on the top-most head might be flashing (a Limited Clear, for example, was a flashing green over red).

One thing I remember from the training I received that might help you avoid some confusion: NYC signals indicated to the engineer the maximum speed permitted; NOT the route the train would be following through an interlocking. For example, a Medium Clear (Red over Green) officially indicated that the train must not exceed medium speed -- the lesser of half of normal track speed or 30 mph -- within interlocking limits. That speed limitation applied to the entire train so the engineer had to know how far the engine had to go beyond the interlocking (the length of the train) before normal track speed could be resumed. Note that this did not tell the engineer that his train was going to cross over from one track to another although that was generally the reason for a Medium Clear.

[CBQ_Guy]

I believe a railroad rulebook for your line and era has signal types used and information regarding same. You can pick these up at swaps, and I ASSume on ebay, too.

Hope this helps . . .