BRAKIE 7j43k It looks like Cincinnati was a through station and would have minimal need to turn trains. Since they were using a turntable and doing cars one at a time, they likely didn't feel a need for a loop or wye. I am not a follower of the area, so I am not knowledgeable of what trains terminated there and the need to turn them. Ed,those looks are deceiving.Several L&N,PRR,NYC,Southern,B&O and N&W passenger trains originated and terminated there. At its peak CUT kept 5 crews busy breaking down and building trains as well as keeping two large roundhouses busy.. In some cities there was no room for a wye since the station was located downtown and the nearby freight yards and city buildings ate up the remaining space. BTW. CUT was build during the Great Depression and could handle up to 219 trains and 17,000 passengers a day...
7j43k It looks like Cincinnati was a through station and would have minimal need to turn trains. Since they were using a turntable and doing cars one at a time, they likely didn't feel a need for a loop or wye. I am not a follower of the area, so I am not knowledgeable of what trains terminated there and the need to turn them.
Ed,those looks are deceiving.Several L&N,PRR,NYC,Southern,B&O and N&W passenger trains originated and terminated there. At its peak CUT kept 5 crews busy breaking down and building trains as well as keeping two large roundhouses busy..
In some cities there was no room for a wye since the station was located downtown and the nearby freight yards and city buildings ate up the remaining space.
BTW. CUT was build during the Great Depression and could handle up to 219 trains and 17,000 passengers a day...
Cinicinnati Union Terminal had a baloon track that went around the roundhouse and connected to each end of the one of coach yard ladders. I did a google image search using these words: cincinnati union terminal track plan
My experience the last couple of times taking Amtrak (on the Cardinal) was that the sleeping cars were at the back of the train. The next car up was business class (appeared to be a cafe car with airliner style seats at one end). Dining Car was next car up from that. In front of that was coach. Baggage car was at the end of the train behind the sleeping cars.
The above post about the Empire Builder being split at Spokane, WA, reminded me of the trip I took in 2000. I had to walk through some sleeping cars to get to the dining car (or was it a cafe, a little fuzzy after 17 years). Also had to walk through to get the working restroom as well.
wjstix The train is set up kinda like two separate trains running together, so you'll have the cars going to Seattle (including sleepers) in the front part of the train, with the Portland section ususally making up the rear of the train. This makes it easier for them to be switched out when they split the train in Spokane WA.
The train is set up kinda like two separate trains running together, so you'll have the cars going to Seattle (including sleepers) in the front part of the train, with the Portland section ususally making up the rear of the train. This makes it easier for them to be switched out when they split the train in Spokane WA.
Through years of accepting that the Empire Builder was a GN train, I missed that "Amtrak" word in Bix's post. I'll leave my GN-only comments in (below) because they are what "used to be". Note that the below is about the Builder in GREAT NORTHERN TIMES.
That doesn't fit the pictures and consists I've seen. If this were the case, you would see a (Portland) dome in the rear, followed by one or two (Portland) sleepers. And, of course, there's still the obs, which went to Seattle.
The standard setup for the westbound Builder is the Portland dome coach up front, mixed in with the other coaches. The Portland sleepers are in the rear with the Seattle sleepers. There are cars separating them.
For example, in the official consist of August 23, 1956, the Portland dome was the lastmost coach, and the two Portland sleepers were the foremost sleepers. But they were separated by the Ranch car, which went on to Seattle.
That was the closest I've seen to actually keeping the Portland cars in a group. Later, they were spread out even more, likely because once you have to break up the train, the size of the cuts doesn't much affect the time it takes to do the work.
As an example of this, in the westbound Builder consist of September 27, 1969, the Portland dome coach is the trailing coach (again), but the Portland sleeper is now the rearmost car (the obs being gone). The two are separated by 4 Seattle bound cars.
(End of mistaken post)
I've ridden the Amtrak Builder from Portland to Chicago. I don't recall the eastbound consist after Spokane, but I believe the Portland section had the view/food car at the front and the sleeper at the rear of a four car train (because my dear wife was the volunteer food-fetcher. Of sandwiches only. Classy, she did NOT think). So I suppose this four car assembly was tacked onto the rear of the Seattle section. It would seem that the consists of this train might be more for the convenience of Amtrak than the customers.
As an aside, for those of you who didn't travel on pre-Amtrak trains, the crew could be, uh, negative towards coach passengers in first class (sleeper, usually) country. I remember on the GN Builder going back through a sleeper or two to get to the diner. And I got checked out a bit by the crew. I was quite happy with my seat in the dome coach, and didn't feel an intense need to see the big dome. Where I would have been unwelcome.
Early in my train riding, I rode the Super Chief east. That was all-sleeper. And I got to watch the scenery disappear from the obs. Uh, hooray!
Even in Amtrak times, this kind of held. In November of 1973, my wife, kids and I went east from Oakland to DC. On the way, in the diner, we met up with a railfan who was in first class (because he was traveling with his dog). He invited us back to see his teeny little space. And that's what he told the porter, who questioned him.
Ed
Traditionally, sleeper cars or other 'first class' cars (like parlor cars on a daytime train) are at the rear of the train. The feeling was that the cars farther back in the train had a smoother ride, less jerking around than head-end cars, and in steam days the smoke from the engine was less of a problem. Railroads wanted the first class passengers to feel paying the extra fare amount was worth it.
However, where the sleepers are in train can be affected by other factors. For example, Amtrak's "Empire Builder" leaves Chicago going west with cars going to Seattle WA, and cars going to Portland OR. The train is set up kinda like two separate trains running together, so you'll have the cars going to Seattle (including sleepers) in the front part of the train, with the Portland section ususally making up the rear of the train. This makes it easier for them to be switched out when they split the train in Spokane WA.
ATSFGuy Let's say I'm modeling an early Amtrak Train. The train has 10 Cars and two E8's, the last three cars are sleepers, two 10-6's and a 12 DB. Can I run all three sleepers with the vestibule in the front facing the direction of travel? Or have the first two sleepers run with the vestibule behind and the last one with the vestibule in front?
Let's say I'm modeling an early Amtrak Train. The train has 10 Cars and two E8's, the last three cars are sleepers, two 10-6's and a 12 DB. Can I run all three sleepers with the vestibule in the front facing the direction of travel? Or have the first two sleepers run with the vestibule behind and the last one with the vestibule in front?
Sure. Are the sleepers in the back because that's where they started, or because they ran the engines to the back to the train for the return trip? (protip: it doesn't matter) I've been on trains in later years where you had two sleepers, with vestibules next to each other, and on trains where you had two sleepers and the vestibules were on the far ends from each other.
Generally, I seem to recall them being on the back end of the car, with the sleepers in the front of the train... unless the train originated from Florida, then the train was being pulled from the rear - sometimes they were even known to keep the baggage car in the back.
I wouldn't really call it an error. It seems that it was rare for any two railroads to order exactly identical copies of the same floor plan, even on cars that ostensibly seem to have the same accommodations. Roomettes could facew the vestibule or away from the vestibule. The key is that they were DESIGNED to run with the roomettes facing forward. Whether they did in practice is an entirely different question.
Tom
ACY I wonder whether you misspoke, or if you are thinking about specific cars that differ from standard.
Hi, Tom
One of the hazards of tackling a subject as broad as Pullman floor plans is that by the "nature of the beast" there is no set rule-of-thumb for these designs.
My mistake was grabbing a few reference materials at hand and making a general statement without studying ALL the data! In short, I thought MY New York Central WAS the norm
Here are a few of the floor plans that I looked at, then blindly looked no further...
B&O 10-5 Plan 4072F Cascade
NYC 10-6 Plan 4123 River
NYC 22 Roomette Plan 4122 Harbor
Looking at some of the floor plans of the Budd built NYC sleepers the roomettes faced both toward the vestibule (plan 9501) or away from the vestibule (plan 9502, 9510). Even the aisle was reversed on the bedroom cars in some cases!
Back to the original conclusion, run them as you see fit.
Thanks for pointing out my error...
Regards, Ed
Ed:
Ref. your comments on Jan. 5, I wonder whether you misspoke, or if you are thinking about specific cars that differ from standard. As I mentioned a few days ago, ex ATSF Pine series 10-6's and ex UP Pacific series 10-6's were designed to run with vestibules forward, not to the rear. Those were the 10-6's I worked in Amtrak service. There may have been other 10-6's set up for operation with vestibules to the reaer, but I don't know what cars those might have been. A car with roomettes should be positioned with the roomette passengers facing forward.
A few comments;
CPR's The Canadian would run with the vestibule on the sleepers towards the rear. At the terminals the complete train would be turned on a loop track and then moved to one of the tracks in the coach yard. If no cars needed to be switched out for mechanical attention the train would stay together, and any servicing and restocking done in place. The tracks were widely spaced with roadways between them for that reason. It would be easy enough for the commissary to supply the dining car using a baggage cart, much easier than all the switching moves required to cut the diner out of the consist. I am aware that some terminal stations would use a wye at the nearest junction instead of a loop.
I think another reason for the decline in use of observation cars is that they usually contained significant non-revenue space, while costing as much as the other cars to operate. As passenger train losses became more significant, non-revenue space became harder to justify.
John
Yes, apparently in the 1960's people on GN's Western Star would sometimes go back to the observation car expecting a great view of the passing scenery behind them, only to find several loaded piggyback flats were hitched on behind the car!
wjstixRe observation cars, a big reason some railroads quit using them in the 1960's was the extra switching involved - not just getting them oriented the right way, but the fact that normally you could only access the rest of the train from one end of the car, so if needed to say add an extra sleeper, you couldn't just tack it on the end of the train, you had to put it somewhere ahead of the observation car.
Quite correct and I should have mention that but,seeing in the late 50s there was no observation cars being used on the passenger trains that stopped at CUS it was a easy oversight.
In the early 60s full dinning car service gave way to a snack car and more head head cars was added for mail storage.
Then the ugly..Several months after the PC merger flexi vans showed up on PC passenger trains through Columbus. These once beautiful PRR passenger trains looked terrible with a hodge podge collection of flexivans,REA express cars,mail storage cars and 3 coaches and a snack car. More often then not the coaches was lettered for PRR,NYC and early PC. These coaches could be trailed by more REA and mail storage cars and with or without a jade green PRR cabin.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Re observation cars, a big reason some railroads quit using them in the 1960's was the extra switching involved - not just getting them oriented the right way, but the fact that normally you could only access the rest of the train from one end of the car, so if needed to say add an extra sleeper, you couldn't just tack it on the end of the train, you had to put it somewhere ahead of the observation car.
Re reserve cars, Great Northern was quite obsessive about all the cars on the Empire Builder saying "EMPIRE BUILDER" on the letterboard rather than the railroad name, so kept extra cars in EB lettering that were sometimes used on other GN trains if not needed on the Builder. This meant you could see an EB-lettered sleeper on the Western Star, and/or an EB lettered RPO/Baggage car or coach on a short local train like the Gopher or Badger.
gmpullmanQuite a few times I've seen shortages on the Chicago-east trains where sleepers were [quickly] pulled off incoming Western trains, soiled linen being tossed out the vestibule right onto the platform and clean linen stocked moments before the train departed, usually late because of the last-minute switcheroo!
I watch that dance once while railfaning CUS platforms in '58.The sleeper they was supposed to use was on the ground just West of the Front Street bridge-the car picked a switch during a switch move. In other words the switchman forgot to check the points to ensure they was closed.
BTW.I suspect every railroader between Indianapolis and Cleveland knew Mr.Taylor was out and about in business car 4 on No 312..
When it mattered, of course, there were very specific instructions on the make-up of trains.
Note the references of "Vest. East" or "Plat West" (some of these cars were open-platform observation).
Back in my day of hanging around Amtrak these were part of a TN or Transportation Notice. If you want to keep most of your passengers happy, run the vestibule to the rear. This will keep the roomettes facing forward. The bedrooms and compartments had cross-wise sofas and almost half of them faced rearward.
BRAKIEA replacement sleeper will be requested ASAP since the sleeper was likely needed for another train.
Quite a few times I've seen shortages on the Chicago-east trains where sleepers were [quickly] pulled off incoming Western trains, soiled linen being tossed out the vestibule right onto the platform and clean linen stocked moments before the train departed, usually late because of the last-minute switcheroo!
The teletype was a huge improvement in expediting these train makeups since an exact copy could be transmitted to all parties involved.
wjstix I think a key thing to remember is a railroad might well have a preferred way of doing things, but not a requirement to do things that way. A railroad might want to have all the vestibules in their top streamliner to be to the front, but if a sleeper car is found to have a problem and has to be replaced on short notice, they probably aren't going to delay the train to run the replacement car to a turntable to have it turned if the vestibule is in the rear. They'll just get it stuck in the train as quickly as possible so the train can leave on time.
I think a key thing to remember is a railroad might well have a preferred way of doing things, but not a requirement to do things that way. A railroad might want to have all the vestibules in their top streamliner to be to the front, but if a sleeper car is found to have a problem and has to be replaced on short notice, they probably aren't going to delay the train to run the replacement car to a turntable to have it turned if the vestibule is in the rear. They'll just get it stuck in the train as quickly as possible so the train can leave on time.
Exactly..Railroads will do what ever it takes to get the job done even if it means placing the sleeper on the rear to save time-not perfered but,it gets the passenger train on its way.
If they need to remove the faulty sleeper they will but,if its a AC/heat/electrical issue and no danger to safe operation then just place the new sleeper on the rear and let the fellas at the end terminal take care of the problem since they are set up for it with proper shops and RIP tracks. Not all stations had RIP tracks or have the needed shop personal.
A replacement sleeper will be requested ASAP since the sleeper was likely needed for another train.
BTW.This scenario would add interest to any operation session that involves passenger trains.
ATSFGuy Thanks for all the replies guys, Anytime I model an early Amtrak train or streamliner with sleepers, I will use photos to decide which way the sleeper vestiblue will face.
Thanks for all the replies guys, Anytime I model an early Amtrak train or streamliner with sleepers, I will use photos to decide which way the sleeper vestiblue will face.
There's some excellent Amtrak videos on you tube that will help.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL but I don't let my knowlege take the fun out of model trains........ Sheldon Nor do I but,I am era specific in my modeling and purchasing of cars and locomotives my knowledge will allow nothing less. Learning railroad history should be seen as a facet of advance era specific layout planning as well as model choices. Can't hurt.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL but I don't let my knowlege take the fun out of model trains........ Sheldon
Nor do I but,I am era specific in my modeling and purchasing of cars and locomotives my knowledge will allow nothing less.
Learning railroad history should be seen as a facet of advance era specific layout planning as well as model choices.
Can't hurt.
I never said anything against that idea, I'm very era specific in my modeling too, there is nothing on my layout post 1954, the newest locos I own are two SD9's freshly delivered from LaGrange - so once again, what I know about 1965, or 1974 has NO IMPORTANCE in my modeling and I do not let where history went color how I see the era I model. I take 1954 as a snap shot in time, and try to capture that.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRALbut I don't let my knowlege take the fun out of model trains........ Sheldon
Larry, I get all that, but the OP asked a simple question, and his era and region are broad or not clear.
No one has said EVERY terminal had tracks and crews to turn cars and maintain fancy car placements. Here in the east a great many terminals are fed by wyes or are part of complex innercity trackage that include wyes and loops. To this day it is easy to turn whole consists in some of these locations.
Union station in DC is on the leg of a wye, so is Camden Station in Baltimore. The AMTRAK trains I see every day on the Northeast Corridor seem to be consistent in car placement and orientation.....I can't speak for other parts of the country.
And yes, in the 50's passenger service in some regions was starting to decline, but some passenger trains remained very prestigious for another decade. Like I said in my first post, there is no one answer.
And again, to model 1954, I really don't need to know what happened in 1965. I only need to know what equipment and practices were in place in 1954.........
And being a C&O and B&O fan and modeler, I know more than just a little about the Chessie...........
Never bought a comic book in my life........subscribed to MR and joined NMRA at age 12 in 1969, did my 7th grade science project on the Westinghouse air brake, started working in the hobby shop at age 14........but I don't let my knowlege take the fun out of model trains........
ATLANTIC CENTRALPersonally, I'm not interested in all the "negative" politics of railroad history.....just one more reason not to model more recent times........
Sheldon,I've always maintained one should have a understanding of what he is modeling regardless of era and knowing the history will lead one to make less mistakes in his choices of models if he is pursuing a given time frame. A example would be me using my Ohio Central GP7 or a Seaboard System GP38-2 in my 77/78 era. Both is out of era as much as a L&NE engine in my 94/95 era since L&NE been gone since 1961.
And thus it is with passenger trains on some roads.By the mid 50s railroads was beginning to question the need to turn passenger cars and slowly started dropping observation cars on second class trains..Then all Pullman trains started to see coaches added for reduce fares and sleepers dropped-the Pullman cars was pushed for overnight travel.
C&O planned a streamline luxury train in the early 50s called the "Chessie" but,the Chessie was still born due to declining ridership on the FFV and George Washington.
I suppose I better come clean..While other kids was buying comic books I was buying MR and Trains Magazine. I read every book on railroads I could get my hands on and being from a railroad family I learn a lot.. I still read MR and Trains as well as Railway Age. Gotta keep up.
BRAKIE ATLANTIC CENTRAL In the 50's or before, the makeup of name trains was EXTREMELY important on most railroads and wye's, loops and turntables were all imployed and generally available near or as part of most major terminals. The cobbled together junk that made up many passenger trains by the late 60's does not even desirve mention compared to the fine trains of the 50's and before. Where do you think those cob job passenger trains of the 60s got started? Those fine trains of the '50s was losing passengers hand over fist to the likes of TWA,United,Pan-Am and AA. Read Trains Magazine from the 50/60s for the saga of the passenger train. So,those 60s cob jobs just didn't happen overnight and railroads was doing their best to discourage ridership starting in the 50s so,they could drop trains. Every railroad knew passenger trains was doom. And no,not every station had a means of turning passenger cars so,those few cars that had to be turn was taken to the roundhouse turntable. This operation was causing more red ink for the passenger department so,turn only if needed became the rule.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL In the 50's or before, the makeup of name trains was EXTREMELY important on most railroads and wye's, loops and turntables were all imployed and generally available near or as part of most major terminals. The cobbled together junk that made up many passenger trains by the late 60's does not even desirve mention compared to the fine trains of the 50's and before.
Where do you think those cob job passenger trains of the 60s got started? Those fine trains of the '50s was losing passengers hand over fist to the likes of TWA,United,Pan-Am and AA. Read Trains Magazine from the 50/60s for the saga of the passenger train.
So,those 60s cob jobs just didn't happen overnight and railroads was doing their best to discourage ridership starting in the 50s so,they could drop trains. Every railroad knew passenger trains was doom.
And no,not every station had a means of turning passenger cars so,those few cars that had to be turn was taken to the roundhouse turntable. This operation was causing more red ink for the passenger department so,turn only if needed became the rule.
Larry, I'm not questioning any of that, but for most of us model railroading is about a snapshot in time, so if a person models 1953, what happened 10 years later is of no importance, in their world It has not happened.
Fact, passenger trains never really made money except for carrying the mail. So what, some of us like them, and some of us model a time when the railroads still took pride in them.
Obviously they don't really interest you, and that's OK,
Personally, I'm not interested in all the "negative" politics of railroad history.....just one more reason not to model more recent times........
The OP asked a question about passenger train practice, not for all the reasons he should not be interested in passenger trains.......
And as I have said three or four times now, there is no one answer to his question, but the practice I use was typical of many of the great streamlined name trains, sleepers vestibule forward, coaches vestibules rearward.
Here in my world, it is 1954, and the passenger trains still make money carrying the mail and are still shinny matched sets with perfect paint jobs.....because model railroading is fun.
ATLANTIC CENTRALIn the 50's or before, the makeup of name trains was EXTREMELY important on most railroads and wye's, loops and turntables were all imployed and generally available near or as part of most major terminals. The cobbled together junk that made up many passenger trains by the late 60's does not even desirve mention compared to the fine trains of the 50's and before.
Larry, Ed and all - important point here, which I made above, this question has EVERYTHING to do with era, railroad and location.
Larry seems focused on the declining passenger service of the 60's - not an era I have any interest in personally.
In the 50's or before, the makeup of name trains was EXTREMELY important on most railroads and wye's, loops and turntables were all imployed and generally available near or as part of most major terminals.
The cobbled together junk that made up many passenger trains by the late 60's does not even desirve mention compared to the fine trains of the 50's and before.
Still, every railroad had their own standards and situations at each different terminal - what the B&O or PRR did in some city in Ohio had little to do with what those same roads did in Baltimore, Washington, or Philly.
Larry,
Here is what I said way back in this topic: "End of runs for big time name trains tended to have turning loops or wyes."
That is not implying "every major terminal", as you just said. It does imply many. And maybe most.
I do say that a loop or wye is far more efficient for turning a train than a turntable. And even if you can easily turn a train (and here I'm saying every car) using a turntable inside of, say, 12 hours, it's far better to use the loop/wye because the time you save can be used for extra cleaning and maintenace time. Or just timetable insurance.
And I also said (or implied) that how railroads put together their passenger trains would be affected by how they turn them. For example: The three dome cars on the Empire Builder could not be run backwards. Each had to be turned at the end of a run. And that's in addition to any others that HAD to be turned. I think GN may well have tried to make them bi-directional IF one of their terminals couldn't turn a full train. THEN the trains wouldn't have always run with all vestibules facing rear. Likely, the dome coaches would have ended up vestibule-random in that case. So, if someone were modeling the Builder, he could just plop the domes on any-which-way. BUT that is not the case. The domes always ran vestibule rear. At least, officially.
In cities that did not have a loop/wye, the enthusiasm for turning an entire train would be minimal. They would turn only the cars that HAD to be turned, since it would be one car at a time. And that's presuming a turntable.
7j43k BRAKIE Again dining cars had to be service and reloaded at the commissary track and there was a large commissary building there as well as a large Pullman yard. Passenger cars would need clean and service. That type of work was never done at the platform even in the 60s. Larry, Everything you say is true. But it has nothing to do with whether a train is turned on a wye/loop. NOBODY is say that, because the trains are turned on a wye/loop, that cleaning and maintenance can be avoided. And yet you are implying that. Ed
BRAKIE Again dining cars had to be service and reloaded at the commissary track and there was a large commissary building there as well as a large Pullman yard. Passenger cars would need clean and service. That type of work was never done at the platform even in the 60s.
That type of work was never done at the platform even in the 60s.
Everything you say is true. But it has nothing to do with whether a train is turned on a wye/loop.
NOBODY is say that, because the trains are turned on a wye/loop, that cleaning and maintenance can be avoided. And yet you are implying that.
Ed,My Friend,It sounds like your implying every major terminal had a Wye or loop and that is not the case.. According to the various railroad books I read sleepers wasn't looped or turn on a turntable until they was serviced and was rebuilt into their assigned train simply because their may be 12 hours between arrival and departure times and servicing and inspection was top priority..
PRR in Columbus turned passenger cars on the turntable at the passenger locomotive roundhouse and service area. The crew would do this when they took the diner,REA and mail cars to their prospective buildings.The regular coaches did not have to be turned.
As the decline in ridership continued the need to turn cars was minimized by adding sleepers enroute and not bothering to turn Pullmans.
When I visited CUT in '68 there was IIRC 12 trains that arrived/departed and terminated there. All but,two of CUT locomotives was being stored pending sale. The loop was out of service and any required turning was done on the remaining turntable. I did get to watch the crew of CUT SW8 #33 make up L&N's Pan American.
I still recall that visit and the coffee and chat I had with 33's crew after they finished their work. I suppose today I would have been arrested and those men fired. I do not know what happen to these men after CUT was shut down but,do know all of CUT's SW8s went to Coors Brewing in Colorado.
PRR practice was to wye trains in Chicago and St Louis to keep corridors on the inside to minimize passing train noise. Sunnyside in New York has a loop. The one exception I know of was the Congresionals. They made the trip to DC and were hauled backward to Sunnyside and back to DC. So two trips were made with the obs on the back end and two next to the GG1.
Yes, the wye in DC is the Ivy City wye along NY avenue.
http://www.railfanguides.us/dc/map2/index.htm