At the risk of being haunted by my late grandfather, who worked for the PRR from 1938 till the PC merger, why did the Pennsy use dark green locomotive enamel instead of black? We're they trying to be unique among railroads, or was there another reason why they used a green that was darker than black instead of actual black? I don't have a problem with it, but it's a curious decision on their part.
I'd suspect (based on my great-granddad working on the Vandalia Line out of Terre Haute) it's just because it's what some person of influence decided it was classy, durable, and economical & wanted it done, perhaps after much testing...but just guessing.
However it came about, the PRR was a very traditional RR and if it was good enough for steam, it was good enough for electric and diesel.
Doubt it's darker than black, technically speaking. More likely a trick of the human eye and the light. Many men have trouble with green, but they don't often qualify as operating personnel, which doesn't necessarily mean they aren't affected by this in part, just not enough to fail in testing. Maybe it's something that railfans say? I'm not a close enough Pennsy fan to assess that.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Hi, Uncle Bob
I do recall reading in one of the Keystone Magazines that the green element of the paint came from copper compounds added to the mix. It was thought that this may have had a corrosion inhibiting effect to the painted surfaces.
Exactly which issue I saw it in I cannot remember but if I come across anything I'll update my post.
There certainly has been much discussion as to the actual shade of the green. It has been my observation that age and oxidation tended to lighten the appearance of the green. You can see the distinct difference where the DGLE meets the black, even in B&W photographs so you really can't say that the green is darker than black.
I have come across some PRR documents that do refer to the color as Brunswick Green and, of course, any time the discussion of "what color was this or that" has to take into account the fact that we are looking at thousands of pieces of equipment painted in dozens of different shops over a period of maybe fifty or more years. There's bound to be a little variation in there!
I recall reading a story IIRC by William Volkmer where they tried to "revitalize" some faded DGLE locomotives at the Wilmington shop by overcoating the paint with clear varnish. I guess the plan was a failure.
Regards, Ed
Bob,
It's referred to as "Brunswick Green" and closer to black than green. The PRR also painted some of their diesels and passenger cars "Tuscan Red".
My guess is that they wanted to visually distinguish themselves from their biggest competitor, New York Central, who primarily painted their locomotives black and, on occasion, gray. One exception was the P&LE, who chose an army green paint scheme for some of their steam & diesels.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Uncle_Bob.....why did the Pennsy use dark green locomotive enamel instead of black? We're they trying to be unique among railroads, or was there another reason why they used a green that was darker than black instead of actual black? I don't have a problem with it, but it's a curious decision on their part.
Well, accoring to to the document which Ed posted,
"Brunswick Green is an extremely dark green shade practically indistinguishable from black. It is to be preferred over black account giving better cover over surface defects."
It sounds to me like Brunswick Green and DGLE are similar in appearance, and the reason for their use is made clear in the quotation.
Wayne
Wayne,DGLE and Brunswick Green is the same paint.
For correct PRR colors mixed Brunswick Green with Weathered Black around 50/50 should work.Add oil stains along the edge of the long hood and walkway of Alco, FM and Baldwin end cab switchers and Alco Road Switchers including the new Century series..
If you think I'm pulling your leg then go to www.rr-fallenflags.org/ and look under Pennsylvania Railroad locomotives.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
doctorwayneWell, accoring to to the document which Ed posted, "Brunswick Green is an extremely dark green shade practically indistinguishable from black. It is to be preferred over black account giving better cover over surface defects." It sounds to me like Brunswick Green and DGLE are similar in appearance, and the reason for their use is made clear in the quotation.
Maybe in 1969.
The colors a railroad chooses are designed to project a corporate image too. DGLE was used for steam engines also, so it has been in use from the 1800's. Back when it was first used, a dark green color was thought to be a rich luxurious color for a conservative company. Many locomotives were painted colors, dark greens, olives, dark reds, browns, burgundies, etc. First class passenger cars were painted dark greens, dark browns and dark reds.
Based on what I have read on painting early equipment, the reason DGLE was chosen was it was a rich, luxurious color that projected a first class corporate image. By the time the PC rolled around the meanings of colors had changed. Brighter colors were more in vogue (e.g. PC Seafoam green, NYC Jade Green, UP was painting boxcars yellow and the KCS, LV and SOO were painting engines white).
If you have ever seen a PRR engine in DGLE on a sunny day, it is clearly not black, it is a dark green. I got to see Blackjack (PRR 4935) when it was freshly painted and it was definitely green.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I don't think I disagree with anything that has been said.
When DGLE weathered, it took on a bit of a dark metallic green aspect. This leads me to suspect there is something to Ed's comment about a copper component to the paint.
I have heard that the PRR did not like the fact that most black paint of those early times tended to fade to blue as it aged. The green paint tended to fade to a warmer shade, which was preferred for whatever reason. I have no idea whether there is any truth to that.
FWIW, I think Scalecoat probably comes closest.
I have also heard the term"Brunswick Green" in reference to liveries on British steam locomotives. It is a dark green, but it's definitely lighter and less black than DGLE. I conclude that the term generically means "very dark green", and it depends a lot on where you live. If I'm not mistaken, the reference was to Great Western Railway locomotives.
ACYfact that most black paint of those early times tended to fade to blue as it aged. The green paint tended to fade to a warmer shade, which was preferred for whatever reason. I have no idea whether there is any truth to that.
None what so ever..More like a grayish grimy black with sickly greenish tint. Color photos will show the real faded Brunswick Green was not very pleasing to the eye.
PRR should have used midnight black or Tucson Red of their passenger units.
Compare a faded PRR locomotive to a faded N&W or NYC locomotive and see which one looks better.
Brunswick Green is what it was called when I worked on the PRR.
From Wikipedia:
Brunswick green is a common name for green pigments made from copper compounds, although the name has also been used for other formulations that produce a similar hue, such as mixtures of chrome yellow and Prussian blue. The pigment is named after Braunschweig, Germany (also known as Brunswick in English) where it was first manufactured. It is a deep, dark green, which may vary from intense to very dark, almost black.[38]
The first recorded use of Brunswick green as a color name in English was in 1764.[39] Another name for this color is English green. The first use of English green as a synonym for Brunswick green was in 1923.[40]
Deep Brunswick green is commonly recognized as part of the British racing green spectrum, the national auto racing color of the United Kingdom.
A different color, also called Brunswick green, was the color for passenger locomotives of the grouping and then the nationalized British Railways. There were three shades of these colors and they are defined under British Standard BS381C – 225, BS381C – 226, and BS381C – 227 (ordered from lightest to darkest). The Brunswick green used by the Nationalised British Railways – Western Region for passenger locomotives was BS381C – 227 (rgb(30:62:46)). RAL6005 is a close substitute to BS381C – 227. A characteristic of these colors was the ease for various railway locations to mix them by using whole pots of primary colors – hence the ability to get reasonably consistent colors with manual mixing half a century and more ago.
The color used by the Pennsylvania Railroad for locomotives was often called Brunswick green, but officially was termed dark green locomotive enamel (DGLE). This was a shade of green so dark as to be almost black, but which turned greener with age and weathering as the copper compounds further oxidized.[41]
The Brunswick Green color name seemed to be used more by the paint manufacturers rather than the PRR itself. It seems that EMD, Alco and GE bought their paint supplies directly from the manufacturers whereas the PRR may have mixed their own formulation of DGLE.
I know from touring the PRR Museum in Altoona that the Pennsylvania Railroad tested and evaluated everything, from brooms, to light bulbs. So I'm sure they gave careful consideration to the formula for paint. Considering the copper oxide additive and the resulting deep, dark green color, the board of directors were satisfied with the economy of the paint along with the corporate image that the conservative dark green portrayed.
From studying dozens of photos of PRR diesels it seems to me that the paint, as applied from the builder (EMD, ALCO, Baldwin) looked darker than what was applied in the various PRR shops where the paint may have been mixed on an as-needed basis.
In one of the PRR historical society magazines I saw a photo of a couple of cans of "touch-up" paint labeled Brunswick Green as supplied to the PRR by one of the major paint manufacturers. Generally, the "name" on the paint has very little to do with the actual shade of the final color of the paint. I learned this when I needed some Forrest Green paint.
https://www.sherwin-williams.com/homeowners/color/green
From a discussion on the PRR board:
Okay, let me lay this one to rest. Way back in 1997-98, the PRRT&HS website was resurrected by Steve Agostini as the webmaster and myself as the "Superintendent". The late James Lynch, Vice President-Treasurer of the National PRRT&HS, was our 'Walking Encyclopedia". Besides articles, announcements and pictures, Steve and I also started "The Discussion Forum" where readers could post questions that the 3 of us could answer along with readers. While there might be disagreements, there were very few 'major' arguements. One of the most asked questions was,is and always will be how did the PRR pick their colors. Stories such as "take a 50 gallon drum of black paint and throw a one gallon can of Buff Gold (or whatever) to make DGLE" OR "the paint shop Superintendent at Altoona mixed colors he liked in 1921 and that became DGLE" grew as Urban Legends. So here's the 'Official' PRRT&HS (at least back in 1998) short answer as to DGLE that was researched by our historians and published on "The Discussion Forum":"Brunswick Green takes its name from the Germany Duchy of Brunswick and refers to a green pigment made from copper salts which were used to extend the longevity of the finish. The name is just a direct translation from the German ("Braunschweiger Grun"), so that is where it originated.DGLE (aka Brunswick Green) is black paint with the above mentioned copper salts added. The paint was given two coats of varnish to protect the shine and finish. As the varnish would age and/or break down (soot, etc.), the shine would fade after which the process of oxidation would take alter the finish. Remember, copper & oxygen = oxidation. Oxidized copper is green! The more the varnish faded, the more green the paint would appear to be. And of course, two freshly shopped identical engines coming from the same shop on the same day (having just received 'new varnish') would probably not have the same color one month later."
I still know beyond a doubt PRR men called it "Brunswick Green" regardless of what you posted. It was a cheap paint that faded rather quickly even on brand new locomotives.
Again study photos of PRR locomotives and you will see a grayish grimy black with a sickly green tint. I never seen a starry eyed PRR modeler model that.
Ed,The stuff I could say about the great PRR would upset many.Of course I was gainfully employed by the "Standard railroad of the world" when its was anything but.
I will say the best thing about the mighty PRR was my paycheck. Of course the office workers had a different and far more loyal view then us low life feather bedding employees in the operations,mow and shop crafts had.
In house fighting and name calling was in its peak in '66.
Good stuff, guys, this is a highly interesting thread.
Rich
Alton Junction
So, bottom line, they apparently decided to use green paint partially derived from copper to convey financial stability and to potentially save a buck. Again, I wasn't sure why they didn't use black --or better yet, Russia iron -- on their engines, but this explains things.
Brakie, regarding your wish that the PRR had painted things in black or Tuscan red, I know the PRR painted a couple K4s and a few Baldwin switchers Tuscan red, as well as FP7's and passenger units (E', PA's, etc.). Also, if the reservation info is to be believed, BLI is supposed to offer the "torpedo" K4 in both green and bronze. I wasn't aware they painted any steam engines bronze, but as someone said above, dark brown was another color of financial stability. (I'd love to get one of those engines, if they're ever produced, but that's probably a subject for another thread.)
Thanks, guys.
Uncle_BobAgain, I wasn't sure why they didn't use black --or better yet, Russia iron -- on their engines...
We often think of black paint as common and probably easy to make. But the stable checmicals used in the black paint we know now are relatively recent. In the past, black just didn't hold up as well, thus the interest in additives to help it sustain a pleasing appearance longer.
Russia Iron is usually thought of as a color now, but it was in fact the result of a metal treating process, not paint. That worked well for steam locos, but would likely not work so well with diesel and electric locos. It was certainly a more expensive process, which would negate the PRR's interest in using the paint for economy instead.
Anyone who has owned a black car will tell you that black shows every ding.
As far as people not being able to tell the difference between dark green and black... maybe? I've never had any problems with greens but I know that I personally have a hard time telling the difference between navy blue and black unless I hold them side by side in a good light.
The odl joke is the DGLE is a bucket of black paint with a drop of green in it. But it is more green that that would make it appear to be. I few years ago I was up at Horseshoe Curve, where now stands a GP9 where the K4 used to be. On the shady side of the locomotive, it looks black, but when the sun reflects off it you can clearly see the green in it.
The PRR even way back had extensive testing labs, and nothign they did was just "for the sake of doing it". You can bet the paint forumation underwent extensive tests before becoming the standard. The previously mentione comments about it covering defects better than a pure black are probably right on. Pure black is hard to maintain in a good condition - I've had black cars. More work than pretty much any other color if you want to it keep looking new. The slight extra cost of very dark green paint vs plain black likely saved the railroad a lot of money in maintenance and repainting.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
mlehman Uncle_Bob Again, I wasn't sure why they didn't use black --or better yet, Russia iron -- on their engines... We often think of black paint as common and probably easy to make. But the stable checmicals used in the black paint we know now are relatively recent. In the past, black just didn't hold up as well, thus the interest in additives to help it sustain a pleasing appearance longer. Russia Iron is usually thought of as a color now, but it was in fact the result of a metal treating process, not paint. That worked well for steam locos, but would likely not work so well with diesel and electric locos. It was certainly a more expensive process, which would negate the PRR's interest in using the paint for economy instead.
Uncle_Bob Again, I wasn't sure why they didn't use black --or better yet, Russia iron -- on their engines...
rrinker Pure black is hard to maintain in a good condition - I've had black cars. More work than pretty much any other color if you want to it keep looking new.
Randy,Compare a faded black locomotive to a faded PRR locomotive and you will see how black fades far better then BG-unless you favor a grayish grimy black with sickly greenish stains.
BG looks terrible in less then a year-how does that save money? All it did was to show the world PRR was using cheap paint. This is easily seen if one studies photos of in service PRR steam or diesel locomotives.
I worked for Bowser years ago. You would not believe how many former railroaders and other "experts" complained about the DGLE paint! Indoors under fluorescent light it can appear black. We made customers step outside to see the green tint. Many former PRR folks actually swear it was black...Even on the roads like T&P which used a lot of Russian Iron or blue green paint, it is now accepted that those bright greens faded to a greyish color as Larry is describing.
For this reason some paint T&P engines as black, grey boiler, and graphite because they had a two tone grey appearance in service with contrast between black areas and boiler color.
PRR8259Many former PRR folks actually swear it was black...
That does not suprise me seeing some new 66/67 (pre PC) engines appeared to be solid black but,as they faded that greenish tint showed.