I'm modelling a coal road using several articulated's and I have been wondering what the range of a full tender load of water, would be for the H8?
I haven't found any information on line but then I haven't looked too hard either.
Same information for the Challenger would be also of benefit too..
I am sure it is going to vary depending on the load it is pulling. Most modern steamers had tenders designed to hold enough fuel to make it across the division, but required a water stop in between.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I first tried Huddleston and Dixon's "The Allegheny, Lima's Finest", but turned up nothing during a brief thumb-through.
So I did an on-line search for "water consumption for steam locomotive" and turned up various entries. One said about 50 miles. Which fits right in with what Jim was saying, a division being about 100 miles, back in the day.
Keep in mind that the size difference in road locomotives wouldn't have as much effect as one might think. The bigger locomotive would have a bigger tender (usually) but would also have a bigger load and use more water per hour.
Keep in mind that it was very bad form to have a locomotive run out of water out on the road. So spacing of water supplies was "as often as needed".
Ed
jrbernier I am sure it is going to vary depending on the load it is pulling. Most modern steamers had tenders designed to hold enough fuel to make it across the division, but required a water stop in between. Jim
Jim, You are correct add tonnage,weather,grade percentage,enroute delays -red blocks,slow orders,adding/removing a helper etc.
PRR had a coal tipple over both main line tracks at Harvey(near Marion Oh).
Oddly these engines was fully service in Columbus and had to have coal and water added 40 miles later because it was a study climb from Columbus to Sandusky. The tipple still stands over both tracks-now NS Sandusky line.
Those big Alleghenies wouldn't fair much better in the mountains of W.Virginia or Virginia.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
7j43k I first tried Huddleston and Dixon's "The Allegheny, Lima's Finest", but turned up nothing during a brief thumb-through. So I did an on-line search for "water consumption for steam locomotive" and turned up various entries. One said about 50 miles. Which fits right in with what Jim was saying, a division being about 100 miles, back in the day. Keep in mind that the size difference in road locomotives wouldn't have as much effect as one might think. The bigger locomotive would have a bigger tender (usually) but would also have a bigger load and use more water per hour. Keep in mind that it was very bad form to have a locomotive run out of water out on the road. So spacing of water supplies was "as often as needed". Ed
Thank you all, it would seem standard practise world wide then.. Here in West Aust it would be no more than about 50 miles except when using a "Water gin"(Auxillary water tender).. With the exception of railroads like NYC using the trough with the Niagra..
Has bugged me, but not enough to put any effort into finding out...
The Coal roads around virginia had some big loco's and long pulls through the mountains and I was curious abut there consumption rates of water.. Would have loved to have seen them in action, especially pulling long drags at slow speed and pulling so hard.. Videos just dont have the same feel...
I visited the Allegheny in the Henry Ford Museum back in the day. Even though "dead", I had this "Oh, MY!" reaction. Those were some fierce looking engines. Definitely on my list of "shouldn't have but want anyway" models.
7j43k I visited the Allegheny in the Henry Ford Museum back in the day. Even though "dead", I had this "Oh, MY!" reaction. Those were some fierce looking engines. Definitely on my list of "shouldn't have but want anyway" models. Ed
I bet it was impressive to stand next to and look over.. I would love to go to the US and check a few things out, the H8 would have to be the first tho, about 3 days and I'd be able to move on then...
There is also an H8 at the B&O Museum in Baltimore, seen it many times, still very impressive every time. The H8 was in my opinion the single most versatile large modern steam locomotive ever built, fast, powerful at any speed, nimble compared to other locos of similar power, a true engineering milestone.
Sheldon
Pride of my fleet, 1601, same as the one at the Ford museum... B&O has 1604... Only two to survive.. Pity because they have an impressive record...
I plan to have 3 rostered, so have to get enough track laid to justify the big guns..
Any articulated is impressive to me, but I have only seen narrow gauge steam and never got to see our Garretts.. I'm from Western Australia, the biggest trains I been around, I drove(road trains), so of course I am giant hungry...
I recommend you start saving your Australian version of dimes and pennies, so that you can come visit when UP 4014 gets to come out and play. It's not an Allegheny, but I am convinced you will be adequately satisfied with the replacement.
http://www.up.com/aboutup/special_trains/steam/photos_videos/bigboy/index.shtml
I got a lot of respect for the people getting the Bigboy going.. It will be a monument to the past when riding the rails again..
But I would enjoy seeing the Challenger and maybe going for a run on her...
Sadly, the Bigboys have been rammed down my throat by other modellers, to the point that I may not even buy one for the layout... I do admire Articulated's but when you never stop hearing about the UP bigboys and which model is best and how great they are, it is like lollies, just puts me off... Probably why I dont want to be a member of a club again...
7j43k I recommend you start saving your Australian version of dimes and pennies,
I recommend you start saving your Australian version of dimes and pennies,
"Dollars and cents" but we say "save the dollars, cause we have no sense"
wraithe I got a lot of respect for the people getting the Bigboy going.. It will be a monument to the past when riding the rails again.. But I would enjoy seeing the Challenger and maybe going for a run on her... Sadly, the Bigboys have been rammed down my throat by other modellers, to the point that I may not even buy one for the layout... I do admire Articulated's but when you never stop hearing about the UP bigboys and which model is best and how great they are, it is like lollies, just puts me off... Probably why I dont want to be a member of a club again...
I understand and agree. Yes the Big Boy was a great locomotive, but is not the "biggest" or "most powerfull" in any sense.
They are popular for several reasons, lots of media hype, even back when they were new, for one thing. Also, here in the US, there as always been more "romance" and excitement about the western railroads, UP, SP, ATSF, etc.
The fact that so many were saved from the scrap line also helps with their popularity - more people have had the oppertunity to see one, even if it is just a display.
I have been at this model train thing for 46 years, I have never owned a model of a Big Boy, don't plan on ever owning one. I model the east, B&O, C&O, Western Maryland, and my freelanced ATLANTIC CENTRAL. I don't buy anything outside the layout theme just to "collect".
I do have an Allegheny...........
Not to get the Big Boy crowd stirred up, but the Allegheny was more powerful in terms of boiler HP, it could handle sharper curves at higher speeds (true of most east coast power due to different operating conditions in the east), and had nearly the same tractive effort. The Allegheny was simply more versatile, although never really used to its full abilities. They were able to pull 5,000 tons at 45 MPH, but more often they worked coal trains of 10,000 tons at 15 MPH! The fact that it did so well in an application not fully in line with its ablities show just how vesatile it was.
A Big Boy would likely have had trouble with the curves here in the east, but an Alleghany could have filled in for a Big Boy without any trouble.........except maybe for needing better/heavier rail and roadbed.....Big Boy alxe load - 67,000 lbs, Allegheny Axle load - 85,000 lbs.
Neither am I a worshipper at the Big Boy altar. But 4014 IS likely to be let out to be run. And to be experienced. And the Allegheny's not. Unfortunately.
I suppose a person could do an Articulated Tour of the US. See one or the other of the UP locos run. Visit an Allegheny. Visit a Cab Forward (Sacramento Railroad Museum). And also a lowly logging articulated:
http://loggingmallets.railfan.net/list/list.htm
The one at Sunol comes out to play on very infrequent occasions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuiyCVp8QeA
It was just across the "crick" from this operation that I saw the UP Challenger in action.
7j43k Neither am I a worshipper at the Big Boy altar. But 4014 IS likely to be let out to be run. And to be experienced. And the Allegheny's not. Unfortunately. I suppose a person could do an Articulated Tour of the US. See one or the other of the UP locos run. Visit an Allegheny. Visit a Cab Forward (Sacramento Railroad Museum). And also a lowly logging articulated: http://loggingmallets.railfan.net/list/list.htm The one at Sunol comes out to play on very infrequent occasions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuiyCVp8QeA It was just across the "crick" from this operation that I saw the UP Challenger in action. Ed
Agreed, and while not an Allegheny or Big Boy, C&O 2-6-6-2 #1309 is being returned to service as well.
http://www.movingfullsteamahead.com/news/view/restore_and_operate_c_o_1309_2_6_6_2
I have a H8, and as I like to know what I buy and have a little knowledge(yes is dangerous sometimes), my collection is mostly East coast... Buggered if i know why but the loco's that attract my attention are from that area mostly, except the Yellowstone, nice loco also...
The H8 has the ability to run at speed as well as high draw bar horse power, pretty much an allrounder...
And yes, a good visit to museums and live steamers, would be great... I think if all goes well in the near future, a trip to Canada hunting, then wander around the states to see trains... mmmm I think I'll get my fix all round in North America...
wraithe I have a H8, and as I like to know what I buy and have a little knowledge(yes is dangerous sometimes), my collection is mostly East coast... Buggered if i know why but the loco's that attract my attention are from that area mostly, except the Yellowstone, nice loco also... The H8 has the ability to run at speed as well as high draw bar horse power, pretty much an allrounder... And yes, a good visit to museums and live steamers, would be great... I think if all goes well in the near future, a trip to Canada hunting, then wander around the states to see trains... mmmm I think I'll get my fix all round in North America...
Well, they don't have any articulated steam, but this little railroad runs steam all day, nearly every day, eight to ten months a year on a regularly published schedule:
http://www.strasburgrailroad.com/
It is not far from the H8 in Baltimore, and has a large museum right across the street:
http://www.rrmuseumpa.org/
Atlantic Central wrote:
I guess it all depends on HOW you DEFINE MORE POWERFUL and NEARLY the same tractive effort.
The numbers I have seen were 110,000# TE for the H-8, and 135,000# TE for the Big Boy. That puts the BB, at almost 23% more TE, so how do YOU define, nearly the same TE?
The BB, could START a heavier train than an H-8, but with a train that the H-8 could COULD start, it could ACCELERATE it more quickly. If it can't start the train, the HP is USELESS.
BOTH locomotives were successes for their owning RR's, worked different territories, and to declare one "BETTER" than the other is pointless, they didn't do the same job. There is NO DOUBT, that the Big Boy was more Popular and Better Known than the H-8, possibly the BEST known locomotive, on a Coast to Coast basis, Maybe UP just had the best PR dept. But the BB, was Impressive and a household name.
To ME, that second story pilot deck on the H-8 is HIDEOUS, now the C&O H-7 is a D**N Good looking locomotive to me.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
challenger3980 The numbers I have seen were 110,000# TE for the H-8, and 135,000# TE for the Big Boy. That puts the BB, at almost 23% more TE, so how do YOU define, nearly the same TE?
Great Northern R-2: 142,055#
challenger3980 Atlantic Central wrote: Not to get the Big Boy crowd stirred up, but the Allegheny was more powerful in terms of boiler HP, it could handle sharper curves at higher speeds (true of most east coast power due to different operating conditions in the east), and had nearly the same tractive effort. The Allegheny was simply more versatile, although never really used to its full abilities. They were able to pull 5,000 tons at 45 MPH, but more often they worked coal trains of 10,000 tons at 15 MPH! The fact that it did so well in an application not fully in line with its ablities show just how vesatile it was. I guess it all depends on HOW you DEFINE MORE POWERFUL and NEARLY the same tractive effort. The numbers I have seen were 110,000# TE for the H-8, and 135,000# TE for the Big Boy. That puts the BB, at almost 23% more TE, so how do YOU define, nearly the same TE? The BB, could START a heavier train than an H-8, but with a train that the H-8 could COULD start, it could ACCELERATE it more quickly. If it can't start the train, the HP is USELESS. BOTH locomotives were successes for their owning RR's, worked different territories, and to declare one "BETTER" than the other is pointless, they didn't do the same job. There is NO DOUBT, that the Big Boy was more Popular and Better Known than the H-8, possibly the BEST known locomotive, on a Coast to Coast basis, Maybe UP just had the best PR dept. But the BB, was Impressive and a household name. To ME, that second story pilot deck on the H-8 is HIDEOUS, now the C&O H-7 is a D**N Good looking locomotive to me. Doug
No disagreement with any of your facts.
The H8 could go faster around a given curve, and was well suited to heavy mountain passenger work as well, which it did during the war.
The H8 also had a better factor of adheasion, 4.57 vs 3.9/4, making up for some of that lower TE.
And its shorter rigid wheel bases meant less losses in curves, again important here in the east.
It the real world, those are both equalizing factors against the higher TE of the Big Boy.
Here is the big difference in operating conditions between east and west, in the west there are long relative "straight aways" where top speed and max power is important. In the east there is always another small hill, river, stream, town that existed before the railroad, that is in the way. Making east coast routes a lot more "curvy". So moderate speeds around constant curves are more necessary, and that extra HP to accelerate more important. Smaller drivers, shorter rigid wheel bases, slighly slower but more nimble is the order of the day.
Personally, I don't care about famous, or popular. I model "average", day to day, working class railroading. Never owned a model of a Big Boy, or a NYC Hudson, or a bunch of other "famous" locos. I have mostly Mikados, Mountains, Pacifics, Consolidations, etc, locos that existed by the hundreds, not by the dozen or two.....but I do also have a number of C&O 2-6-6-2's, an EM-1, several N&W class A's, some Proto 2-8-8-2's converted to 2-8-8-0's and the H8.
But then again, I don't collect model trains, I only buy models that fit the theme and needs of the layout...... and I don't model the UP......
I have little to no interest in the west, been there, did not care for it much. Much happier here where things are green.
I did not call the H8 "better", I did call it more versatile......
There is nothing wrong with a Big Boy, it was a great loco, But like the OP, I tire of the idea that everybody with a piece of HO track should care about it or have one.
There have got to be enough of them out there by now for everyone remotely interested to have all 25.......
I think the manufacturers are foolish to keep beating each other up making the same models. Sure they must be making money, but I bet they could make more by leaving the Big Boy sales to the other guy and investing in some new models that have never been done.
A good number of Yellowstones and 2-8-8-2's had more TE than a Big Boy, but if it makes you feel good, the Big Boy is most famous - you win.
C&O 1309 is neat, and I have owned an HO big boy...but give me the Santa Fe 2-10-4. According to S. Kip Farrington actual road tests showed a remarkable drawbar hp cutve well over 5000 hp and they could really run fast and roll mile long trains of reefers fast. Articulateds have limitations. The Santa Fe engines were relatively underappreciated and starting tractve effort was very conservatively rated at only 93000 lbs.
They would have given C&O 2-10-4 a real run for the money. Also some sources say the T-1was perhaps as good or better than the h8.
PRR8259 C&O 1309 is neat, and I have owned an HO big boy...but give me the Santa Fe 2-10-4. According to S. Kip Farrington actual road tests showed a remarkable drawbar hp cutve well over 5000 hp and they could really run fast and roll mile long trains of reefers fast. Articulateds have limitations. The Santa Fe engines were relatively underappreciated and starting tractve effort was very conservatively rated at only 93000 lbs. They would have given C&O 2-10-4 a real run for the money. Also some sources say the T-1was perhaps as good or better than the h8.
Large long rigid wheel base locos have specific advantages and disadvantages compared to articulated locos.
Having only two cylinders and fewer moving parts is actually an advantage, less losses.
The disadvantages start as soon as the track curves.....the sharper the curves, the higher the losses in power/TE.
Again, out west different operating conditions allowed large driver long wheel base locos to be more effective. Similar big locos in the east were often restricted to the routes with the easiest curves, and grades that were long and steady, not a lot of changes within the grade.
Example, the B&O had what was likely one of the best 2-10-2 designs in the S1, and their route to Pittsburgh has long steady grades and easy curves, the S1's were right at home.
BUT, several times they tried them on their lines west route, which goes directly over the Alleghenies - lots of curves, looks like a snake on a map - they put several on the ground and one time they dumped an S1 over on its side trying to use them on that route.....
But the EM1's and EL's had no trouble........at higher speeds and good tonage.....
The driver wheel base of an S1 is 21', the driver wheel base of an EM1 is only 16.5' - makes a bid difference on a tight curve.......
So if you have the trackage for it, sure, big modern 2-10-4's are great, if not, something that "bends" arounds the curves may have advantages......
The PRR never used many articulated locos because they straightened out their mainlines very early. Other railroads did not have the luxury or the real estate.......
The C&O bought the T1's in 1930, but rather than buy more later, they bought Kanawha's (Berkshires) and Allegheny's - this talked about in the book LIMA SUPER POWER STEAM LOCOMOTIVES by Dixon and Kohls and by several other steam historians. The T1 was great, but even on the first class roadbed of the C&O, it had restrictions has to where it could go and at higher speeds was hard on the track, and on itself. The Berks and H8's could travel system wide....
The T1's ran north and south on a relatively flat, straight route. The H8's and K4's ran east and west through the mountains.....and H8's later replaced or supplemented the T1's.
7j43k Great Northern R-2: 142,055# Ed
I love it when someone just comes in and puts one little quote up..
That is one nice loco, and its got some good specs... Amazing how so many big locos where built before WW2...