Wow everybody!
Lots of great information! Thank you!
CG - The facility in your pictures is very close in size to what I want to do.
The reason I asked the original question was to prevent me from doing something that was obviously prototypically wrong. However, it seems I was overly concerned. This seems to be one area where I can actually do whatever I want (within reason) and still be more or less correct.
One idea that caught my eye was that I don't absolutely have to have the turntable feed track(s) lined up directly with a roundhouse track. That adds a lot of flexibility to the arrangement. However, I will try to avoid putting the ash pit right next to the coaling tower.
My facility will also be serving diesels with a separate small diesel shop and fueling station. Steam and diesel will share a machine shop. There will be a steam plant and wheel shop similar to the East Broad Top buildings. One area where I will stretch credibility a bit is that I am going to have a paint shop similar to the East Broad Top one. I realize that a paint shop wouldn't likely be part of a small service facility but part of my intent is to model a museum.
I appreciate your input very much!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
7j43k Just to be clear, the two drawings are of the same facility (top 1917, bottom 1930). And I suspect the lower one has left some tracks out, judging from the lack of tracks into the roundhouse.
Just to be clear, the two drawings are of the same facility (top 1917, bottom 1930). And I suspect the lower one has left some tracks out, judging from the lack of tracks into the roundhouse.
Yep.
CG
Ed,What I would do is build the engine service area as a straight line with two tracks and a three stall roundhouse since that would be ideal for our five or six track yard-that's the more like a outlaying yard in a small city then a major freight yard in a large city and of course like all things railroad there would be exceptions like the B&O in Columbus,Oh that had a small yard that was used by three local crews.
The thing to remember is roundhouses was used for light to medium repairs so,old #344 would rest on the outbound ready with a full head of steam or on the storage track with her fire banked awaiting her next run.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Ed
Here's a couple of small engine facility diagrams a few years apart. Bear in mind that diagrams of major facilities are far more numerous than those of relatively minor places like this.
BRAKIEEd,What you see in that book is large serving areas more suited for a club or a basemment filling layout.
Oh, yeah, I agree Brakie. The second set of pages from the ICS book is geared toward a smaller (but still big for model RR purposes!) operation.
Those were the examples I had on hand and they explain the "turn-around" of a locomotive, now, like we all have to do, is figure out what has to get chopped off to fit on our tiny layouts.
I just figured Dave and anyone else might want to read... and keep reading. In his original post Dave was asking about the arrangement of the facility and the routine for the engine service. Both those articles hit on that.
There's lots more pages I left out devoted to HUGE backshops, like Altoona or Topeka but that's way more than what we can possibly model.
Take care, Ed
Ed,What you see in that book is large serving areas more suited for a club or a basemment filling layout.
How about the more compact servicing areas that was in cramp spaces? A branch line or a yard in a small city wouldn't have a smaller servicing area since there may be two or three local crews working out of that yard. There may not even been a engine house.
gmpullmanI'll try to post a few track diagrams that I have on hand when time permits.
Did somebody have insomnia? Here's a few teaser pages but I have a link to Photobucket where you can see the rest and zoom in to see the details more clearly. I hope the pages are legible.
Either click the photo or go here:
http://s155.photobucket.com/user/centralpullman/library/Prototype%20Photos/Engine%20Terminals-%201941%20CYC?sort=9&page=1
The above represents a huge facility (Is it Ivy City in DC? I see Southern steam and GG1s)
And a smaller facility example from the ICS Textbooks:
Plenty to keep you busy until your Mc Guirk book arrives.
Have Fun! Ed
Here's how the line from Brampton to Orangeville looks to today. Ah, the romance of modern railroading.
Apparently weed killer is in short supply in Canada, eh.
The main reason it was metal was dismantleability (if that is a word). When the CPR had it built, management new that steam would be out in the not too distant future.
They wanted something that would come down with relative ease, which is why they didn't go the typical concrete route.
CentralGulf I said earlier that the coaling tower was on the main. That needs to be corrected. It was on the main, but destroyed by fire about ten years before this particular photo was taken. The new tower was built on its own track adjacent to the main. CG
I said earlier that the coaling tower was on the main. That needs to be corrected. It was on the main, but destroyed by fire about ten years before this particular photo was taken. The new tower was built on its own track adjacent to the main.
Interesting. I would assume that, since the old one was on the main, it supplied coal to tenders on the mainline tracks. I wonder if it also supplied coal to the enginehouse yard trackage.
Conversely, if the new tower was placed over the yard trackage, I wonder if there was a coal chute on the side to still service a main track.
One reason I can think of for rebuilding the tower in a new location would be that, should another fire happen, the burned hulk wouldn't be blocking the tracks. As it was doing about the time the rebuilding decision was made.
Another is that there'd be less "stuff" above the mainline track. Sometimes "stuff" inserts itself downwards and causes trouble for approaching trains.
Still another is that reconstruction could start right away, before the old remnants (and perhaps the foundation) could be removed. This especially if they didn't choose to rebuild "in kind".
That is just a FASCINATING picture. So much better than just another 3/4 front shot of a steam locomotive. And in COLOR!
Take the roundhouse, fer example. First off, it's empty. Now, I don't know WHY that I find that interesting. I just do.
But, moving on, since it IS empty, you can see how they painted the interior: a dark color up maybe 4', and the rest white. And notice the smoke jacks. They're different. Get's me thinking that one set was added later. I'll remind you that with this setup, you can have a live engine parked either way. Before the newer jacks were added, not so much.
Also, you can see that there are no rear windows over on the left. Must be a reason.
And notice that, while the table is aligned for the arrival track, it is NOT aligned for the opposite roundhouse track. How many modelers would do that?????
PS: I had another look at CG's photos and found another shot (that I had missed) of the area. It shows the coaling tower. From a distance, anyway, it looks like it has only one coal chute and that it supplies a track to the LEFT of the track with the NKP hopper. And DOES NOT supply the departure track. Uh, wow. Weird. Or maybe it makes perfect sense.
The NKP hopper track is almost surely the supply track for the coal tower. In the "other" picture, it looks like it's raised up 3-4 feet or so. Looking at "our" picture, it looks like that maybe sorta could be true there. In reality, it almost has to be.
Also of interest is that the new coal tower looks to be a metal "Snow" type critter much like this one by Scale Structures:
The old one, I would assume, was all wood. Hence burnable.
"Burn me once, shame on you. Burn me twice, shame on me."
7j43kAt the end of a run, an engineer will report verbally or in writing (depending on how formal things are on the RR) any irregularities. That information will be forwarded to what I'll call the "engine manager". He'll add that to his already collected information of that loco and combine it with what I'll call the "demand factor" (sorta self explanatory). Then he'll decide what to do with the loco.
First every engineer is required to fill out a engineer's locomotive mechanical report at the end of his run and that is forward to the mechanical department.He is also required to fill out a pretrip inspection report.
Here why.Should old #344 be in a wreck the FRA will inspect the mechanical records as a matter of course and there is no "Well,nobody told me" or the engineer's "I reported it" excuses. Its all there in writing.
As far as deferred locomotive maintenance there's very little of that allow under FRA rules concerning locomotive maintenance. Some things can dead line a locomotive including crack glass.
There are thousands of variables when it comes to servicing areas on railroads for any one book to cover.Studying pictures in Trains or Classic Trains is a start as is railroad historical photo sites.
hon30critter ndbprr: I understand that there wasn't a 'Master Plan' for the service facilities. What I was really trying to understand is what would the logical order be for the individual components/activities. In other words, when a steam engine came in for service, what did they do first, second, at the same time? Did they drop the ashes first, fill the coal hopper first, water tower, sand tower.... or did it not matter that much? Hopefully the book will answer those questions. Thanks, Dave
ndbprr:
I understand that there wasn't a 'Master Plan' for the service facilities. What I was really trying to understand is what would the logical order be for the individual components/activities. In other words, when a steam engine came in for service, what did they do first, second, at the same time? Did they drop the ashes first, fill the coal hopper first, water tower, sand tower.... or did it not matter that much?
Hopefully the book will answer those questions.
Thanks,
Dave,
The book will likely answer all your questions. But you don't have it yet, so I'll anticipate a bit.
You use the phrase "came in for service". Well, it depends on what kind of service. And the amount of time there is to do it. Or NOT do it.
At the end of a run, an engineer will report verbally or in writing (depending on how formal things are on the RR) any irregularities. That information will be forwarded to what I'll call the "engine manager". He'll add that to his already collected information of that loco and combine it with what I'll call the "demand factor" (sorta self explanatory). Then he'll decide what to do with the loco.
If there's a place for it and the time, he'll surely dump the ashes. He may then simply top up the water and coal and place the loco on the ready track. On the other hand, the loco may need maintenance. Then it likely goes to the roundhouse (after dumping ashes). The fire may be put out or it may be maintained, depending on the type of maintenance. When the loco is subsequently in good order, it may either stay in the roundhouse or be sent out to the ready track, depending on demand. Coal and water are usually added just before going to the ready track. One reason for that is that if the loco stays hot, it MAY be using coal and/or water from the tender, and the folks will want it full when being actually dispatched. It should be pointed out that some shop facilities have steam available to keep the engine "live". But the fire would still need some stoking to keep it up.
All that said, the typical opertion is dumping ashes on arrival, doing what needs doing, and adding coal, water, and sand just before being released for usage. But keep in mind, necessity can rearrange many things.
If you look at the picture in the topic, the track where the righthand loco is sitting is the arrival track. And you can see the ash dump. The track to the left is the departure track. And you can see the water pipe. And the photographer is apparently on the coal tower.
The only aberration I see is that it LOOKS to me that the sand supply is on the arrival track rather than the departure. But. Really. What difference does it make? I'll answer my question with: "None."
It appears that the departure track is also the ready track. This can end up being unfortunate should you want the blocked in engine out of order. Which can also explain why a ready-to-go loco might be tucked into the roundhouse for a bit. Which isn't happening here.
A bit more on the roundhouse and any other radial tracks. The purpose of the roundhouse itself is maintenance. But what do ya do when you've got a loco all spiffed up and "there's nowhere to go"? Either keep it in the house, or place it on a radial. 'Cause if you put it on the ready track, it's supposed to leave soon. You can visualize this happening in the photo. And how messed up things can get with a combined single departure and ready track. Not really a big deal at a small terminal. Unless SOMEONE'S a big screwup.
Important to keep in mind is that the flow of operations is determined be people who are trying to make the best use of what they have. That sometimes means doing things the regular way. And sometimes the irregular.
hon30critterHopefully the book will answer those questions.
Dave,No book will give you the correct answer because of the varibles between locations based on the available space and the railroads needs. I've seen photos of ash pits before the coal tower and just before the turntable.
There is no need to add worries where there never was any.I suggest studying photos of smaller engine service areas and find the one that suits your needs..
And as that NKP gon shows loaded hopper cars did indeed leave the home rails unlike some "experts" would lead you to believe.
Tom and Ed (gmpullman):
Thanks for the book recommendation. I will order a copy as soon as I post this message.
CG:
Very informative picture! Also thanks for the link to the other area pics.
Ed (7j43k):
Thanks for the detailed observations. I would have probably missed much of that. Great modelling opportunities!
Everyone, your input is much appreciated!
The ash gon does look to be on a depressed track. But it only looks a couple of feet down. So they'd still be tossing those ashes awfully high in the air to get over the sides. I feel that the neat piling in the gon was done by a clam-bucket.
That said, a person COULD have a lower track and tell the guys to wear a mask when the wind is bad.
Orangeville is a perfectly modelgenic small yard. I am incorporating parts of it into my track plan.
The ash gon is on a depressed track as far as I can tell. I think they just shovelled out the ash pit directly into the gon.
There were additional water plugs at the ends of the platforms between the main and the station track.
Other pics linked at TrainWeb.
http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/CPR_Bruce/branches_gallery.htm
CentralGulf Have you looked at CPR's Orangeville, Ontario facility? It isn't too far from your location. They had more than two steamers based there, yet their facilities were not as extensive as those you are considering. This 1956 photo appears to be a telephoto shot taken from atop the coaling station, which was located on the main just before the yard throat. Water appears to have been taken from standpipes. AFAIK, there was nothing much else. CG
Have you looked at CPR's Orangeville, Ontario facility? It isn't too far from your location. They had more than two steamers based there, yet their facilities were not as extensive as those you are considering.
This 1956 photo appears to be a telephoto shot taken from atop the coaling station, which was located on the main just before the yard throat. Water appears to have been taken from standpipes. AFAIK, there was nothing much else.
Pretty neat picture!
I really like that NKP hopper of coal over on the lower left.
Besides the water supply (note that it can supply both incoming and outgoing tracks), there's an ash dump below the incoming loco. Note the bit of concrete wall for the pit showing. From the way the ashes are piled in the gon, it looks to me like they use a small crane to clear the dump. And over on the far left track on the other side of the main is what looks like a perfectly good crane! How interesting.
Over near the tracks to the table, it surely looks like a box of sand (note "spillage"). I do see what looks to be a ladder leaning up against the building. I expect sand was loaded into the sand dome by hand up the ladder. The building would likely be a drying shed, especially considering the sand box is open to the rain.
Marty's book looks like a fun and informative read even if yer not planning a facility.
First and the most critcal element Is the topography. I have never seen a master layout from any railroad. It is based on what type and dimensions of the space available.
I'll second Tom's suggestion for that informative book
Google has a nice review here that allows you to browse a few pages:
https://books.google.com/books?id=CxAXPWlW_6UC&pg=PA9&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false
I'll try to post a few track diagrams that I have on hand when time permits.
Best Of Luck,
To answer your question about order: I think it varies from terminal track facility to terminal track facility. However, having a separate steam and diesel terminal tracks is a logical assumption.
Unfortunately, I have it boxed up but Marty McGuirk wrote an excellent book put out by Kalmbach called The Model Railroader's Guide to Locomotive Servicing Terminals:
It covers but steam and diesel facilities - large and small - and shows how they evolved over time. If your LHS doesn't have it in stock, Kalmbach has it for 50% off. It's definitely worth purchasing and will answer a number of your questions.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Hi gang!
I recently realized that I needed to change the layout of my steam locomotive service facilities. What I need to know is what the typical arrangement was for the water tower, coal tower, oil bunker, sand station and the ash pit? Were they all on the same track? If so, in what order? If I should have more than one track, what goes where? This will be a small(er) service facility so it will only be servicing one or two steam engines at a time.
I'm modelling the transition era so there will also be diesel refueling facilities as well, but obviously they will be on a different track. I'm going to try to fit a wash station somewhere in there too.
Thanks as always folks. I really appreciate being able to use the forums to answer my many questions.
Regards,