OK, since early piggyback is an area of special interest to me, I will take a few minutes to add some more info. Unfortunately I don't have some long list of carefully researched web info to document everything, much of the back up I have are hard copies, which I simply do not have the time scan and post, and most of my research relates to pre 1960, because it is 1954 here on the ATLANTIC CENTRAL. But it should shed some light on the questions at hand.
In response to some of the above speculation about 50' TrailerTrain flat cars, it is known that TrailerTrain did get 50' flat cars, originally used for two 25' vans or single vans 40' and less, from some of its member roads. Exactly what types and manufacture all those cars were, I do not have detailed records.
But first, turn back the clock to about 1950. As a number of roads around the country began to experiment with piggyback, most built their own equipment from existing flat cars or other means - I will explain that later.
Regarding the Wathers GSC 53' flat and its details. The details included witth the original Wathers kit from the 1990's allowed the car to be built as a bulkhead, regular or piggyback car, with several options in the piggyback version.
Rub rails - the rub rails are typical of the rails built by many railroads, wood, steel channel, pipe, were all used by various roads, most attached to car via the stake pockets, just like the Walthers car.
Bridge plates - several different designs were popular, the ones in the kit are typical.
Brake wheels - Most flat cars of the time already had collapsing end brake wheels that allowed end loading, this was most typical on early piggybacks as well. The more modern side wheel had just been introduced and was not yet in wide spread use. Piggyback equipment was not specificly equiped with side wheels until longer cars came along, like the first Beth Steel 75' cars for PRR and Wabash. 50' cars did not see them generally until the re-use of 50' cars to handle 45' trailers much later (except in the freelanced world at my house).
Hitches - the Walthers kit included pre hitch jack stands, still in use to some degree into the early 60's and it includes hitches. I have seen many photos of 50' cars with one hitch, and with two hitches. Remember the hitch was not invented until 1954, widespread use by 58/60.
So, how many conversions were done using GSC cars? hard to say, most old photos of Piggybacks are not clear or close enough to be sure of the exact flat car design or manufacturer. How many later got hitches? Well since a GSC is a newer/better car, they likely lasted longer, and very likely some were used as 45' trailers caused the existing 85' cars to obsolete.
Roller bearings - at the start, most piggyback flats had conventional solid bearings, but early on it was seen as a high speed service, and cars as early as the first 75' cars in 1953 were built with roller bearings. Photos I have show every possible version, solid, converted, old enclosed Timken style, and modern open styles, all as far back as the mid/late 50's.
Now for some random early piggyback trivia:
The B&O took old 40' boxcars and used the frames to build piggyback flats, in fact lots of other roads did too. Seldom modeled, there was a large fleet of 40' piggyback flats used for single 32'/35' vans. These cars stayed in service until TrailerTrain, but did not go to TrailerTrain. The B&O museum still has one......
The B&O also converted a large number of AAR standard design 53'-6" cars to piggyback starting in 1954. While the AAR car is a built up riveted car, it is similar in size and other details to the GSC car. Some good info on modeling these, and some good photos can be found in the November 2013 issue of RMC - oh, I forgot, lots of you don't save mags any more......
So, with dozens of railroads converting whatever their shops could build, with whatever materials were at hand, there is pretty much a prototype for anything that seems functional when modeling early piggyback.
Personally, with a fleet of over 100 piggyback flat cars, I choose not to obsess over the correctness of each car, in fact I know most of mine are not correct at all. But they all capture that classic flavor of the photos you have all seen of the early B&O, Southern Pacific, PRR TrucTrain, Wasbash, Nickel Plate 50' flats with a 35' van or two 25' vans.
I have Athearn, Bachmann, Walthers, Tichy and others in my fleet, 40' 50', 53' & 75'. The new Bachmann piggyback car is nice, but rides too high, so I lowered them to the right height - sorry no photos of those handy.
I say the Walthers car is very "representitive" and likely correct for at least a few examples - personally, I'm not waiting/searching for a prototpye photo of every car I put on the layout......I have about a half dozen of the Wathers GSC cars, they are a "minority" in my fleet, with most being riveted AAR designs.
Sheldon
Good previous discussion on roller-bearing truck application in RR use: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/13/t/161799.aspx
Timken was advertising roller-bearings in the RR press extensively bu the mid-1930s, but the Depression limited their application to new rolling stock. The more technically advanced late steam power, however, often included the use of roller bearings.
It was war that opened up the general freight car market to roller-bearings. First, by wearing out a lot of old equipment, that required replacement once the war wound down. Second, the vast increases in roller-bearing production for the war effort meant a lot of excess capacity postwar. This also made roller bearings relatively cheaper.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
That Walther's Trainman car is trying to capitalize on the rebuilt 50' Boxcars that the Southern and Later the NS made into TOFCE cars to handle the new at the time 45' and 48' Trailers.
Here is a car I made out of the Front Range/McKeen kits that I have, also the MKT and C&NW did the same thing in the early 80's.
Rick Jesionowski
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
zstripe Those cars were called 50ft Front Runners.....Walthers Mainline made them at one time. http://files.ctctcdn.com/ab712b4b001/7dab60a6-bdda-4fbd-b221-3596def556e6.gif They were phased out due to the growing size of containers/trailers and a three pak or five pak 48ft Spine car was more versatile.
Those cars were called 50ft Front Runners.....Walthers Mainline made them at one time.
http://files.ctctcdn.com/ab712b4b001/7dab60a6-bdda-4fbd-b221-3596def556e6.gif
They were phased out due to the growing size of containers/trailers and a three pak or five pak 48ft Spine car was more versatile.
What I find interesting is that some of the well cars made for longer containers have been rebuilt or cut down to carry 40' containers only. An explanation over at TrainOrders as follows - it makes sense:
When the 48-foot well cars were built, domestic boxes were 48-feet long. The 48-foot boxes are almost all gone now and the 48-foot well cars became obsolete. So they are being cut down (and move to marine-box service) or lengthened (to stay in domestic-box service). The rest of the world by and large cannot accommodate 53s. So international trade is largely done in 40s and 20s (the latter for heavy stuff). There is a relatively small number of 45s also used in international trade. They can be placed on top in the 40-foot well cars.
The rest of the world by and large cannot accommodate 53s. So international trade is largely done in 40s and 20s (the latter for heavy stuff). There is a relatively small number of 45s also used in international trade. They can be placed on top in the 40-foot well cars.
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,2262642
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Take Care!
Frank
fieryturbo ATLANTIC CENTRAL TrailerTrain did have and use 50/53' cars for single trailers as late as 1991. Are you sure you're not referring to the 53' spine cars or those odd 2-axle flatcars (that didn't last very long) from the '80s?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL TrailerTrain did have and use 50/53' cars for single trailers as late as 1991.
TrailerTrain did have and use 50/53' cars for single trailers as late as 1991.
Are you sure you're not referring to the 53' spine cars or those odd 2-axle flatcars (that didn't last very long) from the '80s?
Most likely that reference wasn't regarding prototypes representing the Walthers 53' GSC flat car; if there were any rare examples in service in 1991, I'd like to see photo's of it.
Wayne,
Thanks for the info/update....although Your dates are a little off. I knew that I could be wrong about some of the info that I gave...afterall, I don't pro-claim to be a expert in Railroad equipment, trucks in particular. I basically go by what I have seen in My 74 yrs of watching, seeing, have experience with, since 1942. I lived next to a huge Railyard growing up and don't recall ever seeing any roller bearing trucks on freight cars, passenger cars, yes! Mainly saw really old equipment with Arch-bar, then newer with, Andrews and Bettendorf. Even lifted up a few lids, just to see what was inside. To My amazement...what I saw was, looked like different colored sewing thread, soaking in oil and of course the end of the axle. I actually did not know that there was more than one Mfg'er of roller bearing trucks either.
I actually had forgot, (that happens to young folk, too) that I had this link about freight car trucks....anyone interested:
http://mrr.trains.com/~/media/import/files/pdf/4/c/c/mr_pi_5-06_freightcartrucks.ashx
Now back to the really good stuff! Trucks...Heh Heh!.......
Take Care! [:D
PS: A pic' of what the TTX car would have looked like when new in 1958. I'm not positive about the brake wheel though.....but color scheme and hitch is correct:
Julian
Modeling Pre-WP merger UP (1974-81)
fieryturbo I have one of these, a NS 53' flatcar with a TOTE 40' trailer. It's a Walthers Trainline product. However, I have yet to find photos of this prototype. Where is it from? Anyone know?
I have one of these, a NS 53' flatcar with a TOTE 40' trailer. It's a Walthers Trainline product. However, I have yet to find photos of this prototype. Where is it from? Anyone know?
The model is based on the 53' GSC flat car built in the 1950's and 1960's. I have also had a difficult time finding any pictures of them with the side guards and TOFC 3rd wheel hitch, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist but I suspect they weren't very common if they did. A quick search on RailCarPhoto's found only 13 hits and most of them were longer GSC flat cars; none with TOFC set-up.
I have found that Walthers produces a higher percentage of foobies so I'd guess that many, even most, of those models are fantasy. A quick search seems to indicate Walthers has produced the 53' red box kit only in the RTR version for TOFC, which is very disappointing because definitely the most common version by far is the plain flat car with no side guards or TOFC hitch. It appears the only way you can get the Walthers version is to built the kit, which have a number of I picked up cheap to built.
If any real 53' GSC flat cars were set up for TOFC as Walthers has sold the RTR cars, they would be most appropriate for the 1950's and early-mid 1960's but by the 1960's I'd hazard they were not very common since longer flat cars such as 85 and 89 foot TOFC flat cars were taking over that service.
I am a 1970's thru early 1980's guy, so I have elected to avoid those Walthers GSC TOFC flat cars entirely and when I do get GSC flat cars, they are the plain flat cars used for lumber, pipe, farm equipment etc. type loads. If you are a 50's modeler, it would probably be appropriate to run the TOFC GSC flat car from Walthers, although again, how common they were back then is a matter of research and if anyone can turn up any photo's as evidence - post them please.
fieryturbo Here is a trailer-train version I would be interested in buying if it fits my era: (1974-81) However, I can't find any photos of this car, it appears to be fictional. Here's the TOTE one that I have with NS trailer: The latter came from a trainset.
Here is a trailer-train version I would be interested in buying if it fits my era: (1974-81)
However, I can't find any photos of this car, it appears to be fictional.
Here's the TOTE one that I have with NS trailer:
The latter came from a trainset.
The two flat cars are not the same model. the one with the TOTE trailer is a generic model patterened after a car owned by the WESTERN MARYLAND but not generally known to be used in piggyback service much if at all.
The 53' GSC may or maynot be a fictional paint scheme, but is very much a correct late 50's, early 60's piggyback flat. Many of these were transfered to TrailerTrain, and acording to Jeff Wilson's book on Intermodal, TrailerTrain did have and use 50/53' cars for single trailers as late as 1991.
Just because you can't find a picture does not mean they did not exist, the car rosters say they did....as to what colors they got painted near the end, I don't know, I model 1954 piggyback operations.....
Like others have said, early TrailerTrain cars were oxide red. Trailer hitches were added later, late 50's early 60's. The hitches were developed in 54/55 and quickly added to most cars, by 58 they were the norm.
As for roller bearing trucks, many cars rebuilt/special built for piggyback were equiped with roller bearing trucks. That has more to do with era of operation than era of original construction. Still on the rails by the late 60's, in trailer service, likely had roller bearings.
zstripe...The NS car is a 50ft. flat car period and it also has the wrong trucks for the build era...roller bearing trucks were not invented yet....
Frank, I'll certainly defer to you on anything to do with trucks and trailers, but roller bearings were around early in the 20th century, although their use under freight cars didn't start until 1923. They didn't become common until quite a bit later, but the first large scale use of roller bearings on passenger cars dates to 1926.
As for that 50' flat with roller bearing trucks, lots of older cars were updated with roller bearings, either with all-new trucks or in kit-form, where the solid journals were replaced in existing trucks with roller bearings. These usually had the journal box lids removed, so that car men knew that they didn't require lube or repacking.
Wayne
Fieryturbo,
From what I see both flat cars are fictional to some degree.
The TTX car is the wrong color...they were freight car red until 1970...the hitch is not the right one for a 53ft piggyback car and the brake wheel was replaced with side mount. They just about stopped using 53ft'ers very early in the 60's, once the 75ft'ers were made, so even if You had the right color and hitch, it would not be for Your era.
The NS car is a 50ft. flat car period and it also has the wrong trucks for the build era...roller bearing trucks were not invented yet.
I would be curious to know what year they put on the BLT date on both cars, if any.
I'm not a rivet counter by no means....but I try at least to get close to what is correct......Some info about TTX, if interested:
http://www.ttx.com/corporate-information/history.aspx
Rick,
That trailer looks to be an 45ft 102'' from the later 70's era. The earlier 45ft 102'' trailers had 98'' axle's under them and were inset from the outside trailer body. I used to hate pulling them, aside from handling different in a swerving motion, You could not see the tires when looking through the tractor mirrors, just going down the road. If You had a hot tire, ready to blow, you could not tell where the smoke was coming from.
As a former resident of Alaska, most of the Totem Ocean Express Trailers were in Roll-On/Roll-Off Service from Seattle to Anchorage and were either driven to their final locations in Southern Alaska or on the Alaska Railroad from Anchorage to Fairbanks.
I have looked for pictures on the ARR but did not find any but did find a picture in in the lower 48 of a TOTE trailer in a well car!
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=309979
Odds of seeing a TOTE trailer in the lower 48 were rare!
GSC also sold the castings to build these cars to many RRs, so you will find numerous variations.
I don't recall the Walthers GSC kits being previously marketed together with trailers, either. The flat car kits built up as either a standard flat car, one set up to do piggyback (with roughly late 1950s details), or with bulkheads.
Well for one the Walthers 53' Flat Car in their Mainline collection represents the GSC (General Steel Casting) cars of the 55/60's era! Pullman Standard also made 53ft Pigs. A lot of Railroads made their own 53's, starting out with a 50', some dating back to 1942.
As far as the TOTE trailer....as far as I know did not exist until 1975, starting out as Sea star line and Totem, Alaska & Puerto Rico shipping Co's. How You got the two together, if bought that way is anyone's guess.
I spent about an hour looking through every source I could think of and could not even find a TOTE trailer on any Railroad, let alone the NS from the 50's to 80's.
I have 10 of the Walthers 53ft.piggyback flat cars and not any of them came with trailers.....also could not find any Trainline flat cars that came with trailers, unless they are very old stock.
Good Luck!
Are you talking about the RTR 'Mainline' flat car with the trailer gear on the deck? If so, this is based on their earlier GSC flat car kit. Walthers also markets a 53' well car for trailers and containers(also under the Mainline series).
The 'Trainline' series flat car is currently not listed - I suspect an older run?
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin