I was in the gorcery store today and pickup the December issue. Pageing through the issue I came across the comment by Jim Holt about the necktie in the picture of a person appearing to be operating a jig saw. All I have to say is that people had more common sense back then than 64 years later. They knew you didn't wear formal clothing to work on machines. Take a look a HUGH BOUTELL photo's back from the day. He was dressed like that while appearing to be operating a lathe. Any machineist with an ounce of common sense knows you don't wear close like that while doing machining. I was in the machine tool industry for over 30 years and know you don't wear close like that. It's just for a more formal picture, that's all.
Bernd
New York, Vermont & Northern Rwy. - Route of the Black Diamonds
protolancer(at)kingstonemodelworks(dot)com
Bernd,
I tend to agree. people dressed more formally for more circumstances back then. Unless one was doing an article on safe machining practices specifically, most any other pose would suggest the need for sharp attire. Sure, safety practices were emphasized, but their incessant repetition and lockstep ubiquity is the product of more recent innovations in private (insurance companies) and public (regulations) safety initiatives.
I can't remember if the guy had eyeglasses or not right now, but any protective eye wear also would not likely be the case unless for a "safety scene." Then, unless one was a full-time machinist and had a pair of glasses set up with temple shields, etc, this would most likely consist of a clear face shield, rather than the safety eye wear we are familiar with now.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Since I hate wearing ties anyway, wearing one while I operate shop machinary is not a concern for me...When viewing old comedy shorts from the post WWI to the WWII era, Buster Keaton, Laurel & Hardy, Three Stooges et.al., it always seems a bit jarring when they were in a dirty or potential dangerous work enviroment (like a workshop, an auto repair garage, a construction site, etc.) wearing ties (and hats!). Of course, the ties were there to get caught in the machinery, the white dress shirts to get covered in oil or soot, and the hats to fly off and get lodged in trees or on roofs that our protagonist will try to climb to location. At least after WWII the work costumes in the movies of the days became more realistic, dungarees or overalls and regular work shirts worn with no ties.I recall asking a question a while back as to when city police patrolmen stopped wearing ties on patrol (apparently in the 1960s/early 70s for many areas), as they would make great nooses for suspects to grab when trying to escape from a cop, except I've read many police wore clip-on ties to prevent just that. Maybe those machinist in the 1930 photos were wearing clip-on ties as well.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
There's a disclaimer from Neil that the photo was posed. Given that the thin end of the tie is several inches from the end, and the wide end is well above his waist, it is a really short tie, to boot.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I can't speak for older heads or management, but the first things I was taught in my very first shop class in 1952 was, "NO TIE, NO LONG SLEEVES." Keeping the body parts out of the moving parts was driven home at every session.
It must have sunk in. Our class was one of several that completed the semester with no reportable injuries.
Those lessons still resonate to this day.
As for tie clips, I have one clipped to the miscellaneous junk box on my worktop. I think I might have worn it a dozen times since it was given to me in 1965.
Chuck (Tie-detester modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I had two shop teachers and a science/math teacher in the mid 70's who always wore a short sleeve dress shirt and a bow tie.......
Sheldon
This reminds me of a circa 1940's ad for denim work pants. The photo showed several supposed railroad men clustered around the front of a large steam loco. I think it was an Erie Berkshire. Every one of the men had their pants turned up in very neat and prominent cuffs, contrary to long established and well known railroad safety rules.
Tom
In the USAF, rings were banned around rotating machinery, including wedding rings. Some guys tried to claim removing their wedding rings violated their wedding vows. Didn't fly, but they tried it.
CG
Well, the photo in question involved a drill press IIRC. I suppose if you tried really hard you could get a tie caught in a drill press. Pretty easy to find hobbyists in the 1930's doing similar things wearing ties. Back then, ties were a normal part of everyday dress. High school and college boys wore ties, and unless you wore a uniform or coveralls etc. you probably wore one to work...and even then, you might. Some RR engineers wore ties into the 1950's. Take a look at major league baseball game fans in the 1940's. It wasn't until the 1960's that ties became 'dress up'; before that, it would be rare to see a grown man wearing jeans, t-shirts, or baseball caps in public.
CentralGulf In the USAF, rings were banned around rotating machinery, including wedding rings. Some guys tried to claim removing their wedding rings violated their wedding vows. Didn't fly, but they tried it. CG
A friend of my dads was a garbage man. While on his route he jumped off the truck and as luck would have it he caught his ring on something and it took his ring finger off. Dad somehow had his ring smashed on his finger and they hacksawed it off. Most of the accidents I have seen and heard of were caused by carelessness.
tomikawaTTI can't speak for older heads or management, but the first things I was taught in my very first shop class in 1952 was, "NO TIE, NO LONG SLEEVES." Keeping the body parts out of the moving parts was driven home at every session.
Chuck,
I'm sure this was emphasized and taught. I've read it in those old textbooks myself, so did not mean to imply it was not the norm in the shop. Why? Because everyone wore the darn things, so there was a distinct need to remind that the shop was one place where this social norm was set aside in the interests of safety. One of those "exceptions make the rule" examples.
It's also probably still in current texts and kids today must scratch their heads when reading it. "Who would be wearing a tie?" they wonder.
Ties are an abomination, I agree, but also a fact of life in some times and circumstances.
One factor to keep in mind is when the picture was taken c.1940, not only did most men wear ties every day, but most of them wore some type of tie-clasp that kept the tie from flopping around loose. When I took "Industrial Arts" 40+ years ago, the teachers all wore ties, but with tie-clasps.
Today, I suspect most men who wear ties don't use a tie-clasp - and quite likely don't even know what it is?
I still remember the day about 20 years ago when I went into the backroom to use the paper shreader. My tie dipped down into the shreader and I could feel it start to pull me down. Luckily I was able to pull away from it before I got entangled. I don't know if the shreader had an automatic safety shut off or not but I'm glad I didn't find out the hard way. I could just imagine getting found like that all blue in the face.
In a metals shop, I expect the most dangerous machine for tie wearers would be the lathe.
For wood, you can add in table saws and planers. And router tables.
Yup, tie wearing is a real problem around machinery.
Now, to long sleeves. Those ARE still worn. Getting away from machine tools, I just recently saw a long sleeve dangling in close proximity to an irreplaceable signal on a layout. I spoke out.
I recommend never wearing long sleeves (shirt, sweater, sweatshirt.....) around a layout. Or, if yer in your cold basement, wearing FORM FITTING long sleeves. I have some stretchy long underwear tops that fit the bill.
Ed
It's not too hard to get a tie caught in a drill press, either. Everyone thinks lathe right away, but just because it's vertical doesn't mean it can't happen with a drill press. Even worse, elan over a drill press with a loose tie and then lower the bit into the piece - with the tie laying right over where the hole is to be drilled.
No rings for multiple reasons - get it caught and it will rip your finger right off, but also around electrical gear, gold is a VERY good conductor, and the last thong you need it to make it any easier to get high voltage into your body.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
The thing with a lathe is that it's very easy to lean over the rotating parts. With a drill press, you tend to hit your head first.
I am actually having trouble envisioning how this tie thing can be done with a drill press. Perhaps if you place a bench mount press onto the floor and kinda kneel at it?
And actually DRILLING a tie??? My inclination when lowering a bit towards the work is to watch the intersection of the two. Which is very difficult at "tie length" distances. And, even then, I like to think I'd notice my tie at the upcoming intersection of bit and work.
Randy, tell me more.
I happened across Linn Westcott's editorial in the March 1972 issue on safety and he has, as usual, a number of cogent things to say. Including this:
"In my high school days I spent several years in the school machine shop under the excellent teaching of a Mr. Charles. He taught us the many safety rules, including never to wear a necktie and to always roll up ones sleaves. In those days I was a sort of hippy of the time, having fairly long bushy hair. If a certain old drill press still happens to be in that shop at South Pasadena High School, perhaps some modern student will find a few strands of my once-red hair stuck in its speed change pulleys."
Westcott in that editorial wrote about motor tools, putting undrinkable liquids in an ordinary drinking cup, knives, ungrounded portable electrical tools, chemicals and solvents, falling from ladders and step stools -- but this statement also warrants repeating:
"But if one could learn the statistics I would expect to find that the innocent-looking screwdriver has cut fingers and wrists more often than the model knife. Look at the working end of your sets of drivers at least once a year. If any have rounded edges or if the taper of their points changes to a blunter angle near the tip, these drivers are more likely to slip. They may cause an accident not only to yourself but also to the head of the screw. Grind screwdriver tips square across; grind the sides perfectly plane with a slow taper. While you should not ordinarily work against the flat side of the grinding wheel, dressing the flats of screwdrivers is one possible exception to this rule.
Since damaged screwheads can cut the fingers and also cause screwdriver slipping, any screw that has a damaged slot should be replaced. ..."
Dave Nelson
1920's Isadora Duncan had her scarf wrap around the rear tire of her convertible. It did not end well.
Now where is the beating the dead horse emoticon?
May I ask what in the wide wide world of sports does any of this have to do with...
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BigJim May I ask what in the wide wide world of sports does any of this have to do with... Railway Post Office article
Why, sure, you may.
Bernd, the OP, was commenting on machine safety matters in an "article" he saw in the Railway Post Office department in "Model Railroader". And various of us had additional comments on the matter.