Are these all the lights on a locomotive?
Please answer all the bolded questions
Steam Locomotive in the Day
Steam Locomotive in the Night
Diesel Locomotive in the Day
Diesel Locomotive in the Night
Off topic: Are Passenger Cars lit in the day?
I will be updating this post when questions are answered.
Thanks,
Charles
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Modeling the PRR & NYC in HO
Youtube Channel: www.youtube.com/@trainman440
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Wow, Charles
This is the equivalent of a hand-grenade question, just toss it in and see what happens!
I'll try to hit on a few things but you have a lot of ground to cover here so...
Cab lights, both steam and diesel. Same as your dome light in the car. If you need to read something like train orders, then you need a dim light to see the order. When you're done it's lights out. Both steam and diesel, the instrument lights, water glass lights, brake gauge lights, Barco speed recorder light are all very dim. Night vision is of utmost importance to engineers. There was a shield to keep the open, white-hot firebox door from view of the engineer if the fireman had to open it to check his fire. Even then, he only opened the door a few seconds at-a-time.
There was a light at the back of the cab on steam engines so the fireman could check his coal supply or see to un-jam the stoker. Some railroads had a light in front of the smoke stack so the fireman could see his stack at night. Black smoke = too much coal = wasted money for the RR.
Flags were used by day and lights after dark for classification lights. But the classification lights might just be left on by the crew, day or night.
Classification lights can be OFF, White or Green. Marker Lights are normally red to the rear. In special circumstances, they would be switched to yellow (or green, depending on the railroad) IF the train was safely in the clear on a siding, depending on the direction of traffic.
SOME classification lights on the front of locomotives can be set to RED, in which case, they are no longer classification lights, they are MARKER lights and this locomotive would be at the END of a train backing up or used as a helper.
98% of the time there are no marker lights on a locomotive. Only when running light (as a complete train) or at the rear of a train as a helper or "pusher" (snapper on the PRR) sometimes, though, they're left on by the crew and nobody bothers to turn therm off. Same with headlights. Sometimes you'll see headlights of trailing units left on. It is either an electrical problem (the headlights of the rear, trailing unit can be controlled from the lead cab) or the switch has not been set correctly when the engines are set up to M-U.
IF the engine was used as a helper and was the last in the train, red markers by night or red flags by day marked the end of the train. PRR had many engines equipped with permanent red markers.
In diesel era, SOME railroads used the classification lights alone, day or night. Others used flags during the day but the lights may be lit, too.
Number boards on steam engines are lit and on the few examples I'm familiar with, they came on with the generator and stayed lit, day and night. Some engines had separate number boards, CN for example, some were part of the headlight. There was a separate bulb for the number board independent of the headlight.
Generally, up until the late 1950's locomotive headlights weren't lit during daylight hours. Safety "experts" chimed in and touted the added visibility of having the headlight lit at all times. Doesn't exactly explain why people today still try to cross the tracks directly in front of a 79 MPH locomotive, headlight or not.
New York Central Mercury had lights (I heard they were blue) above the drivers to see them at night.
Cab unit Diesels had engine room lights. You can often see them through the port-hole windows or especially the E7s with the bigger windows. Early diesels had an attendant riding along to keep an eye on the "power plant" while en-route.
Some railroads were big users of back-up lights on their diesels (B&O) some railroads added them later (PRR).
"Ground lights" were sometimes on both sides of the cab but if there was only one it was under the engineer's (right) side. It was there so the conductor could see his watch or paperwork when stopped and talking to the engineer OR so the engineer could see the ground to judge movement/speed of his engine or to see landmarks to judge where his engine was.
There has been plenty of discussion of Mars/Gyralights. Pretty much a choice of the railroad. Some used them extensively, some tried them but didn't adopt them and still others used them on almost all equipment.
Some diesels had step lights at all four corners of hood units for safety of switchmen,brakemen. Later models had platform lights on the nose of each end and along the side platform/walkway especially where there was a step up (battery box or traction motor blower duct)
CP had Mars lights mounted on the roof of diesels pointed up at a 45° angle, supposedly for better visibility.
There were "auxiliary" lights on some steam locomotives, PRR and NYC. There is some debate about the function of these lights. It is open for discussion.
Or the "third eye" on this Niagara...
I can not find much information about these "auxiliary lights", let us know if you do.
Let us know if there's anything I haven't covered. Others may have more specific information. Lighting useage varied railroad-by-railroad. The Southern Pacific had headlights stacked on top of headlights and probably wanted to add even more...
Have Fun! Ed
Gmpullman,
Ed, I highly compliment You, in taking Your time, with research, with diagrams and all the other knowledge You gathered in answering the OP's post. That is more info that I would ever need or want for that matter.....I believe You covered the questions!
Take Care!
Frank
Ed:
I agree with Frank. Your post was very informative!
Thanks
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Ed gets a big Gold Star for that one!
My comment is from the modeling side of things. You probably would not have step lights on during the day, but you couldn't see them anyway, because they are small and project downward on the steps. Any light visible would be drowned out by room lighting, as it is outside in the sun.
Pretty much the same thing for cab lights.
Numberboards vary, but it's rare to see one so bright that it's obviously on during the day unless it's gloomy.
You didn't ask about passenger cars, but lighting in them would only rarely be bright enough to be perceived from outside during the day.
Does this mean don't bother with these lights? Could be. On the other hand, it also means there's really no need to turn them on and off individually. This is how I light cars on my layout, simply wire them up so they're always on (I have DCC) and make sure they're not so bright as to be obviously on during the day. Much of the lighting on RTR cars is far too bright, so needs dimming to really look right IMO. With LEDs the current consumption is minimal and there is effectively no heat, so the lack of need for a control, switch or decoder, makes things simpler.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Wow, someone knows their stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow, yeah that's a lot of info to process!
The following are questions for the steam era, and are meant for major railways(not a 3rd class RR that only used flags/didnt even use class lights)
So Cab lights are almost always off(unless reading a train order), right?
And Class lights were mostly left off in the day, and they used flags instead, correct?
Red Markers were also mostly subsituted with flags in the day, right?
When you say 98% of the time there were no marker lights on locomotives, do you mean that they were off, or that they weren't attatched to the engine?
Thanks, Charles
If the last car was able to carry the marker lanterns, they would be displayed unlit during the day. Red to the rear, green (or yellow) to the front and sides when occupying the main track. Turned as required by the rules when not on the main track, etc.
Oil burning steam engines, at least on the railroad I'm most familiar with, also had a smoke density light by the stack for night use. It was a visual aid in firing the engine at night.
Train orders were on thin "onion skin" paper so that originally they could be read by the engine crew just by holding them up to the engine gauges at night.
Jeff
jeffhergertTrain orders were on thin "onion skin" paper so that originally they could be read by the engine crew just by holding them up to the engine gauges at night.
Actually they were on onion skin so the train order operator could make multiple copies at the same time ("manifold copies"). and that you could read the writing through the paper. The operator used double sided carbon paper. The train orders were on a pad. The dispatcher would tell the operator " 19 East, copy 5"*. That would tell the operator to use form 19, he would have to make 5 copies and to set the eastward train order signal to stop (or no to clear the train order signal for an eastward train).
The operator would slip a piece of metal cut the size of a train order in the pad 5 orders deep. He would put a piece of carbon paper between the first and second, the third and fourth and the fourth and fifth order blanks. Old time operators used a "stylus" (think a ball point pen with no ink in it) and modern operators might us a ball point pen or stylus. As the dispatcher dictated the order they would write the order out, pressing hard enough to get the bottom sheet of carbon paper to transfer. Some of the orders would have the carbon on the top side and some would have the carbon on the bottom side and would have to be read through the paper.
The rules required the operator to make all the copies at the same time, if practical. If the operator couldn't then every new set would have to be copied and repeated back to the dispatcher (or another operator, depending on the rules).
On a diesel consist, the engine that was addressed in the running or other orders would be the engine with the numberboard lit. It the train was Extra 1234 West, Second 56 Eng 1234 or No 23 Eng 1234, then engine 1234 would be the only engine with the number board lit, regardless of where it was in the consist.
Some railroads also had a train indicator (instead of a number board) that would display the train schedule number or an X if it was an extra (the three trains above would display X1234, 2 56, or 23).
Some early streamliners had a vertical light that showed a vertical beam above the engine for publicity purposes. Some roads had a revolving beacon or strobe on the cab roof. Some early passenger trains had a red warning light that went on if the train was in emergency.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I can agree about the need to make multiple copies. The RI depot I used to spend time at, the operator had sets of blanks ready, carbons inserted, to place in the typewriter. (In earlier times, all train orders had to be hand written.) They had sets of 5, 9 and 13 ready to go. One opr told me that 13 was about the most one could make at one time. The rule book the RI used (Uniform Code of Operating Rules-1968 edition) required, besides a copy for the conductor and engineer, an extra copy for the engineer to allow the fireman and/or head brakeman to read the order(s) and a copy for the flagman/rear brakeman. Thus a set of 5 was for 1 train, 9 for two trains and 13 for three trains. The odd copy left was the office copy, which had to be kept on file for a certain length of time.
I read about reading orders by the gauge light from one of the autobiogragphy books by steam era engineers. Often the gauge lights were all they had. Once in a while on modern diesels, that can still be true.
For running orders (meets, run-lates and such) Jeff's numbers are correct. CPR did not require as many copies; one copy went to the engine, and one to the conductor in the caboose (or passenger train). A third copy would usually be provided for a plow operator or if the superintendent had his business car attached to the train.
The other type of train order was for more permanent restrictions, such as slow orders or a siding blocked with cars. For those every train passing by needed its copies. Fortunate stations had some form of mechanical reproduction, often what I heard called a "ditto machine" that printed in blue ink from a typed stencil and could run off another 50 or so as the stock got depleted. Otherwise the operator had to write or type additional copies from time to time and repeat them to the dispatcher from the new copy. PITA for both operator and DS.
I came on duty one time to discover the idiot on the previous shift had given out the last copy of a slow order, and because he no longer had it did not include it in the transfer. Thinking it strange, I went looking for the annulling order and failed to find it. I was able to get a copy back from the train on its return and correct the situation without involving further complexities.
John
gmpullmanGround lights" were sometimes on both sides of the cab but if there was only one it was under the engineer's (right) side. It was there so the conductor could see his watch or paperwork when stopped and talking to the engineer OR so the engineer could see the ground to judge movement/speed of his engine or to see landmarks to judge where his engine was.
The head brakeman would have the same switch list as the conductor and would share information with the engineer concerning the next stop. The engineer didn't really need to know beyond that since he would follow the switchman's signals.
Unless the conductor was going for a early quit he just stood and observed the two brakeman for safety and operation rule infractions as they went about their work..That was his job as conductor since he would be held accountable if something went wrong or a brakeman was injured or killed..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Re locomotive lights.
Some steam locomotives had a small light on rear of coal bunker or oil tank on tender so Fireman could see tender deck while taking water.
Steam engines which traveled in reverse alot usually had a road headlight on rear of tender tank, others a smaller version just to get from/to train and shops.
B units and rear of A units often had portable headlights and socket on unit for same reason.
Some yard engines did NOT have class lights nor illuminated number boards at all, as were in Yard Service. Usually these units did NOT have a Speedometer.
Some yard engines were wired to mount class lights in brackets on nose w/socket for plug.
Many engines had a socket for plug + wire to operate headlight and interior lights in Plow pushed ahead. Plug and wire kept in box on rear of plow when not in use. Plows usually had air hose under hinged door on front of plow plates to pull out and couple air thru when being handled ahead of caboose, their usual location in trains when not plowing.
Air off Signal Line, pressure changed beneath cab.
Ditto above re Spreaders.
Diesels had lights in engine room or under hood.
An afterthought re Diesel Locomotive lights.On the rear of A Units and on both ends of a B Unit, there were electric lights above end doors to illuminate receptacles for MU Jumper Cable as here above top of door to right of chain.http://www.atsfrr.com/resources/Sandifer/FT/Photos/RearF2.jpgAn A unit had electric lights inside nose, as did a Roadswitcher in it's short hood.
Some F-M Roadswitchers had electric lights shining down at side of walkways between units coupled in MU as their running boards were often much higher than other power.
Thank You.
Ed hit just about everything you need to know about headlights, class lights, etc. You asked about the lighting of passenger cars. Most of the time, the ambient light through the windows of a typical passenger car isn't enough, so lights are kept on during the day and kept on through the evening. At night, the lights are dimmed in the coaches so that aisle lights permit safe movement, but the bright overhead lights are dimmed or off. Timing can vary, but the lights are usually turned down around 9-10 pm. On the Auto Train, where I worked, we usually turned them down shortly after the beginning of the 9 pm dinner seating. Restroom lights remain on. In sleeping cars, the corridor lights remain on, but individual room lights will be on or off, depending on the wishes of the passengers. Lounge cars are usually kept fairly bright until closing time, which is usually 11 pm or midnight. This time probably varied quite a bit from one train to another. Lights are usually dimmed at night in dining cars or lounges that are not open for business, but on bright at other times.
Cabooses would have their interior lights on at most times; but late at night the Conductor's desk was the only area that really needed light, so the light may be dimmed elsewhere in the car. If you are trying to observe your train at night from a bay window or a cupola, a bright interior light might interfere with your ability to focus on the train outside. I don't put interior lights in cabooses.
Hope this is helpful.
Tom
ACYCabooses would have their interior lights on at most times; but late at night the Conductor's desk was the only area that really needed light, so the light may be dimmed elsewhere in the car.
Other then the small light on the conductors desk(table really) the lights would be off so,the rear brakeman can watch for problems like hot boxes or sparks from a dragger.
Besides that you're less a target for rock throwers by not being silhouetted.