Guy PapillonSo I will go with PRR way to do things. Body and underframe of the same color with black trucks.
That's cool..Like I said I paint my underframes and truck side frames grimy back-unless they come painted.Since there are FRA rules about painting wheel faces I just lightly rust mine.
However..
Look closer at my cars that was built 20 or so years ago and guess what you'll see? Grimy black wheel faces.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Thanks everybody,
Ed,
Your contribution about PRR practices was much appreciated.
Larry,
I understand that the underframe of a car won't stay clean very long and I don't run my cars upside down either. But, as it is an unpainted kit, Idon't want to let the underframe unpainted.
So I will go with PRR way to do things. Body and underframe of the same color with black trucks.
For now I have no weathered car or locomotive. So I don't see the need to simulate dirt and grime. When the construction of my layout will permit more time, I will probably consider weathering. When that day will arrive, I will use Wayne advices to do it (such great results). The overspray will then cover all underside visible parts like valve and reservoir. That sould do the job. For now, all of my rolling stocks will have the unrealistic ''out of the box'' look. And I am quite happy with that.
Guy
Modeling CNR in the 50's
gmpullmanI say paint the silly underframes any color you like.
I can agree with that..Nobody is going to notice.Some don't even bother to paint them.
BTW.Every time I whacked that fool brake rod release arm dirt and rust came down that's why all the cussing plus I didn't like the idea of being under the car-we didn't have the three step back then.
ACY PRR's great Samuel Rea Carshop
Still great in the Conrail Era!
Who would have ever thought 1994 was the "Good Old Days!"
Ed
OK You are correct.
That picture I posted happened to be taken at a museum. I should have given more thought before posting it.
There were other times that I was involved in revenue equipment on other railroads but I didn't happen to have my camera handy at the time.
I say paint the silly underframes any color you like.
Maybe take all your old paint and dump it into a bucket, stir it up and see what color you get.
I'll step away now...
gmpullmanI'm not sure what part you are asking if I believe or not? The OP asked how new cars were painted. I dug out some painting diagrams and documents stating how the cars were painted.
Even a new car underneath would be filthy after several weeks of revenue service and one can't go by museum cars or locomotives since they are no longer in daily service.
BRAKIEEd,I hope you don't fully believe that?
Hi, Larry
I'm not sure what part you are asking if I believe or not?
The OP asked how new cars were painted. I dug out some painting diagrams and documents stating how the cars were painted.
Guy PapillonI am about to begin to assemble my first unpainted boxcar kit and I would like to paint the underside of the floor like the prototypes.
(I added the underscore)
All I did was provide a document from one railroad showing exactly how the "corporate policy" was written about how to paint the underside of a car.
Do I believe cars got dirty after they left the shop? Well, now. Well, you're preachin' to the choir there.
Yes, the reservoir got dirty, too. I'm only saying the side of the reservoir got slapped with paint every 36, 48 or 60 months depending on what kind of brake valve it had. SO the original car might be twenty years old but the (dirty) reservoir MAY have been painted only a few months ago with the repack date, COT&S date and location stenciled on it... more recently than the car had been painted.
I guess I wasn't being too clear about that.
I spent a bit of time hanging around at the B&O's Clark Avenue car shop back in the '70s. (Cleveland) and if there was a tool that I never saw used it was a paint brush.
Spent quite a bit of time under cars as well changing brake valves, piston cups, brake shoes and repacking journals, did a few truck changeouts, too.
Generally, there wasn't much black under there unless fresh oil got slung off the wheel onto the car floor. It was a tan mud color mixed with a little rust color splashed up from the rails and tie plates..
regards, Ed
Tom,No doubt about that for a new car or a newly outshop car like I mention but,they won't stay like that very long.
In my case and since I don't run my cars upside down I just paint them grimy black.
I'm sure Ed's info is correct for cars coming from the carbuilder's or PRR's great Samuel Rea Carshop in a specific time period. I think PRR freight car color (i.e., red) can be documented via photos from an earlier time. Also, repaints in smaller PRR facilities, or touch-ups on foreign roads, might not have been very uniform. When I have seen air reservoir test data painted on the resrvoirs of freight cars, the reservoir has been the color of the carbody.
Tom
gmpullman From painting and lettering diagrams from the "Standard Railroad Of The World" AKA, Pennsylvania Railroad. These several prints are regarding "house cars" from the book Pennsylvania Railroad Compendium produced in 1989 by the Middle Division PRRTHS. UNDERFRAME: Paint top surface of all underframe details in contact with wood with one coat of asphaltum compound (car Cement), spray or brush paint interior surfaces of side sills, side posts, side sheets, end sills and end sheets with asphaltum coumpound (car Cement) for a distance of approximately 12" upward from horizontal surface of side sill on new cars and cars undergoing extensive repairs. Issued Altoona December 1, 1955 and superceeded by the following instructions: http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRR_PaintingInstructions_Jun20_1961_SamRea.pdf Now, this is just one railroad but generally most railroads followed standards set by the AAR and the North American Car Manufacturers Association standards. Asphaltum sounds awfully a lot like the "dum-dum" that auto body shops used. I'll bet the railroad recipe included lots of asbestos in it, too! Keep in mind, the air reservoir gets slapped with paint every time the car is repacked then restenciled with new COT&S dates, until the advent of the consolidated stencil. (1972) http://trn.trains.com/railroads/abcs-of-railroading/2006/05/freight-car-markings The "control valve" triple valve or A-B valve gets changed out every five years (I have to check on the date) so paint may not match on those, either. Good Luck, Ed
From painting and lettering diagrams from the "Standard Railroad Of The World" AKA, Pennsylvania Railroad. These several prints are regarding "house cars" from the book Pennsylvania Railroad Compendium produced in 1989 by the Middle Division PRRTHS.
UNDERFRAME:
Paint top surface of all underframe details in contact with wood with one coat of asphaltum compound (car Cement), spray or brush paint interior surfaces of side sills, side posts, side sheets, end sills and end sheets with asphaltum coumpound (car Cement) for a distance of approximately 12" upward from horizontal surface of side sill on new cars and cars undergoing extensive repairs.
Issued Altoona December 1, 1955 and superceeded by the following instructions:
http://prr.railfan.net/freight/PRR_PaintingInstructions_Jun20_1961_SamRea.pdf
Now, this is just one railroad but generally most railroads followed standards set by the AAR and the North American Car Manufacturers Association standards.
Asphaltum sounds awfully a lot like the "dum-dum" that auto body shops used. I'll bet the railroad recipe included lots of asbestos in it, too!
Keep in mind, the air reservoir gets slapped with paint every time the car is repacked then restenciled with new COT&S dates, until the advent of the consolidated stencil. (1972)
http://trn.trains.com/railroads/abcs-of-railroading/2006/05/freight-car-markings
The "control valve" triple valve or A-B valve gets changed out every five years (I have to check on the date) so paint may not match on those, either.
Good Luck, Ed
Ed,I hope you don't fully believe that? That may be true for new or recently out shoped cars but,you can bet the farm its filthy under those cars after several weeks of revenue service.Even the air reservoir is dirty.
Your car or truck is all shiny on top side but, look at the underneath next time its on a rack a freight car is no different.
I know from experince because I had to climb under a freight car(gon?) and wack away on a stuck brake rod arm release with a hammer. After a half hour of wacking and cussing we decided to drag it to a industrial siding for the carmen to fix.
doctorwayne wp8thsub ....The underbody on this Rock car was obviously a matching blue.... I'm not so sure about that one. Most underbodies, as far as I know, were built either upside down or on their edge, and likely would have been painted when that phase of the construction was completed. I'd guess that when that car's superstructure was painted, any low-hanging equipment near the sidesills, such as the triple valve and reservoir shown, simply got caught in the overspray.
wp8thsub ....The underbody on this Rock car was obviously a matching blue....
I'm not so sure about that one. Most underbodies, as far as I know, were built either upside down or on their edge, and likely would have been painted when that phase of the construction was completed. I'd guess that when that car's superstructure was painted, any low-hanging equipment near the sidesills, such as the triple valve and reservoir shown, simply got caught in the overspray.
Regardless, the distinction for modeling purposes is essentially moot. RI repainted a lot of cars in the late 70s, and everything visible without crawling underneath was usually blue (e.g. the draft gear, bolsters, frame cross members, brake cylinders, valves, air tanks, rods). The simplest path to modeling how these looked would be to paint the whole car one color, as the overspray was pretty widespread.
Rob Spangler
Guy PapillonWhich of these is more close to reality?
None of the above..The underside of a freight car is dirty and rusty since its seldom cleaned or repainted.
The colour of the underbody will likely depend on the owning road's practice at the time the car was built. Once a car was in service for some time, the collection of dirt and grime could make it difficult to know what the original colour might have been.
wp8thsub....The underbody on this Rock car was obviously a matching blue....
I'm not so sure about that one. Most underbodies, as far as I know, were built either upside down or on their edge, and likely would have been painted when that phase of the construction was completed. I'd guess that when that car's superstructure was painted, any low-hanging equipment near the sidesills, such as the triple valve and reservoir shown, simply got caught in the overspray. Either that or those visible parts were deliberately painted to match the carbody, only because they were so visible. I'd guess the blue paint to be more expensive than black, too, and I seem to recall that the Rock Island, at that time, was struggling to remain a "mighty fine line".
Wayne
Mostly the first or last options (all black or all matching the body), depending on the car. Try to find photos of the specific car involved on a site like http://rr-fallenflags.org/ , http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/ , http://freight.railfan.ca/ , or http://www.railcarphotos.com/ and paint accordingly.
One thing to consider about the manufacturer's approach is how the model is constructed. When the model uses a separate floor, it's cheaper to use the same black plastic parts for every car. If the floor is cast in one piece with the body, it's cheap to paint the floor the same color, but still use plain black parts for the details. Some manufacturers go to the effort of painting the underbody parts so they can match the rest of the car. Unless the manufacturer has a real commitment to representing prototype specific paint, it's likely the colors you see on the finished model reflect cost concerns more than anything (e.g. Accurail kits).
Regardless of the underframe, many roads used body colored trucks, at least on some cars. With some, like Union Pacific and Missouri Pacific, the practice was very common. Again, a review of prototype photos can help.
At least in the era I'm modeling, the underbody matching the rest of the car, or at least the adjacent parts of the car, seemed to be the norm. Many house cars had cushion underframes with extended draft gear that revealed the underbody color.
Here's an example of an Evans 5100 boxcar. The frame and trucks are all silver.
This is the Scale Trains model. Given its role as an inexpensive kit, the frame and trucks are unpainted black plastic.
I painted these parts silver on mine to help it seem more finished.
This photo of a fairly new IC car reveals a black underframe and trucks, in contrast to the body colored parts on the adjacent SP and UP cars.
The underbody on this Rock car was obviously a matching blue, while the trucks are black.
This grouping of cars on my layout reveals a somewhat different approach on each one, but as the above photos prove each one is still correct. You may not be able to find photos of the exact car you're working on, but a review of others from the same road can give a general idea of typical practice.
When new, could be any of thes. After the first few loads, there's the 4th option. Everything becomes coated with a layer of dust and grunge that makes the appearance uniform. Speaking of "Dust" -- the old Floquil color -- it can represent a decent compromise, depending on the regions where the car spends most of its life.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I think all of the above schemes have probably been used somewhere, at one time or another. Many roads specified black trucks for red cars, and sometimes the instructions included "trucks and underbody". But in many cases, the entire car --- body, trucks, and underbody --- was painted the same. Even when official instructions were specific, variations could be found. For example, a lot of PRR instructions specified black trucks. It appears that the new cars were delivered that way, but subsequent repaints had red trucks. You might get road-specific information from one of the railroad historical societies.
I think it was largely a matter of convenience and efficiency. If the two colors cost the same, it was easier to simply paint everything the same, rather than go to the trouble of using two colors, especially on the underbody that is often unseen anyway.
I remember crawling all over and under a Mather boxcar at a museum to get dimensions. THIS WAS DONE WITH PERMISSION! The underbody color, including hardware, was the same as the upper body color (allowing for the dust & road grime). Also, the trucks were the same.
I am about to begin to assemble my first unpainted boxcar kit and I would like to paint the underside of the floor like the prototypes. It seems that every model manufacturer has his own idea about it and I can observe, in my roster, three main types:
- Black, whatever is the color of the car (Accurail, Athearn RTR, Kadee)
- Same color of the car with frame, rods and piping black (Branchline, Atlas Master)
- Same color of the car including frame, rods and piping, and even trucks (True Line Trains).
Which of these is more close to reality?