One thing that can be said about following a particular prototype in our hobby is that "the only thing that is certain is that nothing is for certain". I rarely use superlatives when describing something because there always seems to be that one, rare instance that proves a popular theory wrong.
I always wondered why the four "passenger" geeps built for Cleveland Union Terminal were black. Didn't NYC's "policy" make for gray paint on passenger engines?
The previously mentioned RS-11s in the first group delivered in 1957 were painted a solid black with no gray "zebra stripe". Three years later, even though built on speculation, the six additional RS-11s DID have the gray zebra stripe.
I'm always willing to bend a little when it comes to the exactitude of the details. I can usually come up with a scenario that will cover for the occasional deviations from historical accuracy.
It's all about having fun!
Regards, Ed
Thanks, fellas. That makes things a bit clearer.
And I would tend to agree, Ed. From the pictures I've found so far I've only seen black paint schemes on the NYC H16-44. To give the author the benefit of the doubt though, he did say "many" but not all. Maybe he elaborates on that a little more in another portion of one of the books.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Tom,
My take on 'class' or 'classified' repairs was a list of items inspected, renewed, or replaced on a normal shopping interval or due to wreck repairs.
There might have been a 'program' to upgrade an entire model of locomotive, but usually that was a 60's thing for the most part. I can think of the NP Baldwin switchers or the some early Alco power that got repowered. EMD usually put in a bid to repower the engines, as well as a sweet trade-in/financing package on new EMD replacements that sent the old engines to the scrapper...
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
tstageWhat would constitute a "class repair"?
My understanding is that the "classes" of repair came out of a USRA "streamlining" of shop facilities in 1918 in order to make more efficient use of duplicate services and keep more locomotives "on the road"
USRA and later the ICC established "levels" of repairs in order to classify their needs.
USRA (1918) :Class 1 New boiler of back end Flues new or reset Tires turned or new General repairs to machinery and tender Class 2 New firebox or one or more shell courses or roof sheet Flues new or reset Tires turned or new General repairs to machinery and tender Class 3 Flues new or reset (superheater flues may be excepted) Necessary repairs to firebox and boiler Tires turned or new General repairs to machinery and tender Class 4 Flues part or full set Light repairs to boiler and firebox Tires turned or new Necessary repairs to machinery and tender Class 5 Tires turned or new Necessary repairs to boiler, machinery and tender including one or more pairs of refitted driver bearings General Repairs to Machinery Drivers removed Tires turned or changed Journals turned if necessary All driving wheel boxes and rods overhauled for a full term of service AAR (1924) Class 1 New boiler or back end Flues new or reset Tires turned or new General repairs to machinery and tender Class 2 New firebox or one or more boiler shell courses new, or wrapper sheet new Flues new or reset Tires turned or new General repairs to machinery and tender Class 3 Flues new or reset (superheater flues may be excepted) Necessary repairs to firebox and boiler Tires turned or new General repairs to machinery and tender Class 4 Flues part or full set Light repairs to boiler and firebox Tires turned or new Necessary repairs to machinery and tender Class 5 Tires turned or new Necessary repairs to boiler, machinery and tender including one or more pairs of refitted driver bearings General Repairs to Machinery Drivers removed Tires turned or changed Axle journals turned if necessary All driving wheel boxes and rods overhauled and bearings refitted Other repairs needed for the locomotive to perform a full term of service
Other railroads adopted their own levels of repair based on these guidelines and some of it may have overlapped into the diesel era. Now that the ICC is history and the FRA dictates repair and interchange rules these terms have fallen out of use.
Jerry Pinkepank is a very knowledgeable author but I think the statement that [the] gray paint schemes "were applied to many locomotives that were delivered or got heavy class repairs in late 1955-early 1956." seems to beg for elaboration.
I have yet to see a DRS-7a in gray paint. Even as late as 1960, the order of Alco RS-11s that were delivered to—but never accepted by—the New York Central were black with the gray band.
Others may have more information regarding this.
Good Luck, Ed
As mentioned previously I picked up Vols. 1 & 2 of "New York Central Power In Color". Browsing through it last night I found a few references to a "light gray paint scheme". According to the author, Jerry A. Pinkepank, the gray paint schemes "were applied to many locomotives that were delivered or got heavy class repairs in late 1955-early 1956." (See Vol. 1: SW1, pg. 25; VO-600, pg. 28 & Vol. 2: GP7, pg 38)
So, it looks like my previous conclusions about the 2014 release of the Atlas NYC H16-44s being a foobie were ignorantly erroneous and the lighter gray would be correct for a NYC post-1955 delivery or post-class repair paint scheme. That leads me to another question, or set of questions:
What would constitute a "class repair"? Would this be a correction to a well-known problem within a class of locomotives? Could it also be a general improvement or enhancement to an already well-designed locomotive or class of locomotives?
tstage BMMECNYC If you havent already purchased one, NYC Power in color Vol 2 (#4000-9820) will be available next month. Should hopefully have at least one photo in full color. Hey Andrew, I just picked up Vols. 1 & 2 of "New York Central Power in Color" and they are going to be a very nice addition to my NYC reference library. Thanks for the recommendaton! I looked through Vol. 2 and every lightning-stripped H16-44 (& H20-44) that I saw was either black or a charcoal gray; NOT lighter gray. Same with the RS-3s. So, I don't know where Atlas got their info but it's a foobie in my book - unless they were going with a weathered black appearance??? Anyhow, I ended up picking up a first-release (2003) of the Atlas H16-44, which is in black and very handsome looking. Tom
BMMECNYC If you havent already purchased one, NYC Power in color Vol 2 (#4000-9820) will be available next month. Should hopefully have at least one photo in full color.
If you havent already purchased one, NYC Power in color Vol 2 (#4000-9820) will be available next month. Should hopefully have at least one photo in full color.
Hey Andrew,
I just picked up Vols. 1 & 2 of "New York Central Power in Color" and they are going to be a very nice addition to my NYC reference library. Thanks for the recommendaton!
I looked through Vol. 2 and every lightning-stripped H16-44 (& H20-44) that I saw was either black or a charcoal gray; NOT lighter gray. Same with the RS-3s. So, I don't know where Atlas got their info but it's a foobie in my book - unless they were going with a weathered black appearance???
Anyhow, I ended up picking up a first-release (2003) of the Atlas H16-44, which is in black and very handsome looking.
You are welcome. I still have to pick up V2. Probably next LHS trip.
The photo doesnt really look all that weathered.
I looked through Vol. 2 and every lightning-striped H16-44 (& H20-44) that I saw was either black or a charcoal gray; NOT lighter gray. Same with the RS-3s. So, I don't know where Atlas got their info but it's a foobie in my book - unless they were going with a weathered black appearance???
BMMECNYCShould hopefully have at least one photo in full color.
There is a color photo of two DRS-7a, 7000 and 7006 taken in the summer of 1956 at Hudson, NY, by Jack Swanberg. Both locomotives in black paint.
The photo appears in New York Central System: Gone But Not Forgotten by H.F. Cavanaugh. ISBN 934088-10-1
The last one had a photo of an F7 in North Vernon, Indiana, where PRR, NYC and B&O all once met. Now the B&O (CSX) and the PRR tracks exist in that town, with the PRR being truncated to about a mile or two in length on either side of the diamonds for a local industrial switcher to feed cars two to and from the main.
Thanks Ed, now that you say that, I think that's what it is.
wjstixAccording to "Diesel Locomotives of the New York Central System" by Edson/Vail/Smith, NYC 7000-7003 were equipped with "Layover Heating" during 1952-53.
It is my understanding that "Layover Heating" is a coolant heater and circulator so that the engines can be shut down in freezing weather and the heater would keep the coolant and oil warm enough to prevent freezing and the oil warm enough to make starting easier.
Normally the diesel fuel was cheap enough then that they were left to idle the whole time but these must have been in service where they were shut down for, say a weekend.
Not saying for certain but that's my take on the layover heater.
Atlas' choices for the 2014 grayish paint scheme: #7000, #7003, and #7011...
According to "Diesel Locomotives of the New York Central System" by Edson/Vail/Smith, NYC 7000-7003 were equipped with "Layover Heating" during 1952-53. I assume this was a steam generator of some type - I know some switchers had small steam generators so they could heat up passenger cars while waiting for the road engine, like when trading engines at a division point. It may have been something like that, although those engines had dual controls so could be easily worked in either direction...so may have been used in commuter train service.
Anyway, my guess would be those four were the ones painted in the passenger scheme - although the book's pic of 7000 on page 95 shows it in black, in what is apparently either a builder's photo or a photo taken at or near the time of delivery in 1951. I also suspect that by the time the simplified "cigar band" scheme came along in the late fifties, they had already been converted back to freight engines.
No reply yet from Railroad.net. I also posted the query over at one of the NYC Yahoo! Group fora. The only answer that I've gotten so far is "some were black, some were gray". I hoping get some road number specific info to elaborate on that.
Thanks, Stix. I'll do that and report back.
I'm pretty sure the model is supposed to be gray, not faded black. The black 'lightning stripe' paint scheme was for freight engines. This scheme, the dark gray 'lightning stripe' was the passenger scheme, like E-units or passenger F's would have.
Like many railroads, NYC bought more passenger diesels after WW2 than they turned out to need. It could be these engines were delivered as passenger engines (like for commuter trains or branchlines) in the dark/light gray scheme, but after a few years were changed to freight engines and repainted into the black 'lightning stripe' scheme. I'm pretty sure they did that with some of the passenger GP-7s.
You might try posting this on the NYC forum on railroad.net for more info....
http://railroad.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=93
Thanks for the links and info, Ed. It's the exact same pics I looked over before posting the thread. The only thing I didn't have in front of me was the NYC diesel book you mentioned because it was back in PA.
Perhaps it's just how Atlas photographed it. Or, maybe it's supposed to be a "faded" black? The Atlas 2003 releases are listed as "Black/Gray/White". The 2014 releases are listed as "New Paint Schemes!"???
All the b&w pics I've seen on Fallen Flags (one dated '52) show what appear to be a faded (oxidized) black. I'm guessing that that's the look that Atlas was trying to achieve???
Thanks, too, for your link, Bear. At the very least it looks like a dark gray vs. a lightish gray.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
Hi, Tom
I have the Edson, Vail, Smith NYC diesel book in front of me and the builder's photo definitely shows Dupont Duco Black Lacquer No. 254-2234.
Sometimes a builder will overspray with dark gray for just the photo shoot but not in this case. There may have been variations (like the olive green for the P&LE) but it is a pretty safe bet these engines wore black for their entire lives.
There's a fuzzy copy of the same builders photo of DRS-7 #7000 here:
https://nycshs.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/fmdieselroser.pdf
All 13 were eventually scrapped by 1967. Toward the end of their careers they didn't look all that pristine:
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc7010ggC.jpg
If I find any information to the contrary, I'll pass it along,
Cheers, Ed
I'm looking at the Atlas H16-44s and was wondering how accurate the dark-ish gray paint on the shell was compared to what was on the prototype?
Would this be a similar color to what the NYC E8s were painted?
I appreciate the input, fellas - Thanks!