D&RGW trains on 3% grade

[taildisk]

Hi all,

I was just watching a video by Charles Smiley - 'Tennessee Pass', and mention was made that some trains west bound, Tennessee Pass to Minturn, would be split aa a safety measure.

I would like to know when this practice was used and how was caboose operation performed, I assume each half had a caboose.

Thanking you in advance from 'down under'

Rob

[BRAKIE]

taildisk

how was caboose operation performed, I assume each half had a caboose.

This was the method I was taught when I hired on the PRR and took various classes including train handling procedure and again on the C&O under Chessie...

When doubling a hill a red flag on the coupler would serve has a marker and would be cheaper then using two cabooses. The rear brakeman would make the cut and place the red flag on the coupler and he would return to the caboose while the front half would proceed to the head of the grade and the head brakeman would do the required work,throwing the switch,setting hand brakes and uncoupling the cars from the engines. Then engines would return light to pick up the second half of the train.

[dehusman]

If the train is doubling the hill then the first portion would not have a marker or a caboose.  The marker indicates the end of the train.  The end of the train is still at the bottom of the hill.  Any train or person passed would see the marker and think that the entire train had passed them and could end up in the "middle" of the doubling train (the rear still at the bottom and the head end/engines at the top with the other train or person  between the two portions.)

The train would establish flag protection at the bottom of the hill, the train would break off as much as the engines could pull, the remaining train would be secured (handbrakes), the head portion would go to the top of the hill and set the head portion in a siding.  That would be secured and flag prottection established.  The purpose of both flags would be to stop any approaching trains and make sure they didn't pass the head or rear portions and get in the "middle " of the train.  The power would return to the rear portion and get all or as much asit could handl and pull to the top of the hill.  Repeating until the whole train was moved.  The markers would be on the last car of the bottom portion.

[BRAKIE]

Well,Like I said I was taught a red flag was to be placed on the rear coupler of the first half of the train. Maybe the rules vary from road to road.

As far as a passing train seeing a red flag on the end of a car on a known steep grade they would understand that flag after all the crew has more then likely doubled the same hill.A crew waiting in a siding at the top of the hill would know just as well.These are qualified and experience crews for that division. Then there's that Absolute Stop they're looking at.

A train plowing into the standing half?  That would be a dispatcher error for crossing that train over or by giving a permission by the stop.

The signals in front and rear of the train would show a "Absolute Stop" aspect and that would mean crew error if they disregarded the signal and plowed into the train doubling the hill..No flagman will stop a inattentive crew that's still running track speed.

Whose going to do all that flagging when there is work to be done? Who will couple the cars,connect the air hose and turn on the train line air valve and release the hand brakes? Not the conductor he's overseeing the operation.The rear brakeman can't if he flagging the rear of the train and the head brakeman can't because you have him flagging the front half.

Signals will protect the movement. Both brakeman will do their jobs per company and union work rules.

Today you only have a engineer and conductor doubling a hill-no flag protection just block protection nothing new there just less men doing the required work.

[DSO17]

taildisk

I would like to know when this practice was used and how was caboose operation performed, I assume each half had a caboose.

 

Doubling the hill was fairly common on a lot of roads. The caboose and the markers stayed on the hind end of the train. It wasn't too complicated with a three man crew. Hope I get this straight:

Secure the hind end and send the flagman back to protect the hind end. Conductor goes forward to make the cut. Do not put a flag or any other kind of marker on the rear of the last car of the head protion of the train. Front brakeman goes with the head portion and sets it off. He can provide flag protection to the head end if necessary. Engine returns to rear portion of train, where conductor is providing protection for the return move (you don't want to collide with your own train) and makes the coupling. Recall the flagman and proceed to pick up the head protion of the train. Back in the day, before radios, it was really important to know how to use the crew properly. Also, back when there was a fireman, he could be used to protect the head end and relay hand signals.

[riogrande5761]

Someone on the Rio Grande yahoo groups email list would likely know the d&rgw specifics.

[BRAKIE]

DSO17

Conductor goes forward to make the cut.

Not his job.. His job is to supervise and to observe the crew for any operation or safety rule infraction. A conductor was also called a foreman on some roads since he was in charge of the train. Some times the work agreement between the railroad and brotherhood would forbid a conductor to do the work as a brakeman.

Again I was taught that a red flag was to be placed on the coupler of the last car while making a double up. Its no big thing..Its telling the head brakeman that is indeed the last car in the first half of the train.

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Also, back when there was a fireman, he could be used to protect the head end and relay hand signals.

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A fireman could rely hand signals and would even in the diesel fireman era but,he would never be allowed to flag.

You keep forgetting the brotherhood job description and work rules.

[DSO17]

BRAKIE

 

DSO17

Conductor goes forward to make the cut.

 

 

Not his job.. His job is to supervise and to observe the crew for any operation or safety rule infraction. A conductor was also called a foreman on some roads since he was in charge of the train. Some times the work agreement between the railroad and brotherhood would forbid a conductor to do the work as a brakeman.

Again I was taught that a red flag was to be placed on the coupler of the last car while making a double up. Its no big thing..Its telling the head brakeman that is indeed the last car in the first half of the train.

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Also, back when there was a fireman, he could be used to protect the head end and relay hand signals.

-------------------------------------------

A fireman could rely hand signals and would even in the diesel fireman era but,he would never be allowed to flag.

You keep forgetting the brotherhood job description and work rules.

 

I guess maybe some people do things a little differently.

[cx500]

BRAKIE

.....

As far as a passing train seeing a red flag on the end of a car on a known steep grade they would understand that flag after all the crew has more then likely doubled the same hill.A crew waiting in a siding at the top of the hill would know just as well.These are qualified and experience crews for that division. Then there's that Absolute Stop they're looking at.

A train plowing into the standing half?  That would be a dispatcher error for crossing that train over or by giving a permission by the stop.

The signals in front and rear of the train would show a "Absolute Stop" aspect and that would mean crew error if they disregarded the signal and plowed into the train doubling the hill..No flagman will stop a inattentive crew that's still running track speed.

..........

Signals will protect the movement. Both brakeman will do their jobs per company and union work rules.

.......

It sounds like you only had experience in signalled territory.  In CTC perhaps a dispatcher could, in certain rare cases, be able to treat the divided train as two separate parts and fit another movement in between.  That could happen if the rear half was in a siding and not blocking the main.  In ABS and dark territory that flexibility is impossible.  In dark territory, and ABS signalled territory, the brakemen would have to protect their train according to the rules (differing distances out to place the flags).

Having a flag on the rear of the first cut could lead to a misinterpretation by an opposing train.  That flag might easily be assumed to be replacing a caboose that became unroadworthy en route, and in fact that is what would happen on most roads.  The flag is ambiguous, and ambiguous rules are a guarantee of eventual disaster.  Signals would help protect against this, but as I said, many lines were dark territory.

John

[NDG]

 

 

Great Information.

 

Thank You.

[jeffhergert]

To prove there is a prototype for everything, I know of one short line that did it differently.  The Ft Dodge, Des Moines & Southern issued instructions that when doubling a hill, the front portion was to be left at the siding at the bottom of the hill.  The rear portion was to be taken to the siding at the top first.  Then the engines would return for the front portion and reassemble the train at the top.

Jeff

[BRAKIE]

cx500

Having a flag on the rear of the first cut could lead to a misinterpretation by an opposing train. That flag might easily be assumed to be replacing a caboose that became unroadworthy en route, and in fact that is what would happen on most roads.

Here is the reason they told me.. If the first half of the double up(instructor's words) had 50 cars and some of those got lose due to improper train handling the head man would have no idea some cars was missing from the first half. A flag is used to insure all cars are present and accounted for-any crew that works on that division will know what that flag meant since they have more then likely doubled up the same hill.

And yes,I worked CTC territory except on the PRR where tower man in cabins controlled sections and would OS trains.Of course these was  becoming endangered jobs by the mid 60s..

I'll like to have a buck for every time we called High St cabin in order to make a simple crossover from track 2 to track 3 and then called Scioto cabin in order to proceed West on 3 over the C&O diamonds..

[Colorado Ray]

The original post is referencing a downhill operation.  Westbound from Tennessee Pass to Minturn is downhill.

Ray

[taildisk]

Yes, that is right Ray. The replies are still good. No reply discussed helper engines which were operated out of Minturn for this section of track.

[BRAKIE]

I guess maybe some people do things a little differently.

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A lot of that will depend on the job description and company/brotherhood work agreements and that varied from road to road and could vary from district to district on any one railroad.

Firemen was under "engineman" work rules and flagging was not in his job description. His job was to attain the fire, steam pressure,keep a constant eye on the boiler gages and ring the bell as set forth by the operation rules. In the diesel era he was to check the gages in the trailing units,call and acknowledge signals,apply the emergency train brake if the engineer became incapacitated  and rely hand signals.  In sort it was a "featherbed" job.

 

A conductor's job was to oversee the safe handling of his train,do the required paper work,read and acknowledge train orders,insure all of the crew has read the daily bulletin,special orders and watch the crew for safety and operating rule infractions.Again some company/brotherhood work agreements forbid the conductor to do the work of a brakeman while other work agreements allowed him to help when needed.Again that varied from road to road and district to district. Another job was to ensure all the crew had their copy of the current ETT and safety/operation rule handbook. I kept mine stash in my grip. He also ensured we was properly dress for the job.No lose colthing,no sandals,cowboy boots (slick sole) or dress shoes-we had to wear work boots. I perfer engineer work boots due to the grip of the sole.

 

The few times I seen a conductor help we was going for a early quit but,more then likely we was going for overtime.