Lets say; A fuel dealer in 1940-50, wanted a load of coal. I assume he called a broker, to place an order.
How long after that call, do you think, he could expect his load ?
[ I've too mutch free time right now and my mind wanders ]
In all truth 3-5 weeks for long distance and for shorter distance 1-2 weeks.That doesn't include any enroute breakdown times.
What slows the shipment is terminal dwell time that could take up to 60-70 hours in larger cities like Chicago including time spent on interchange tracks or railroads like IHB,BRC or other terminal roads...
This is why shippers and receivers scream at their freight agent back them---and they still do..
If you can find them at train shows buy Trains Magazine from the 50s.Its not a pretty story why shippers turn to trucks.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
It depends on the commodity. In some cases, such as produce, loads were sold in transit and could arrive within a day or two (or less). Clearly, nobody waited "1-2 weeks" much less "3-5 weeks" for a reefer of fruit.
If it was a regular customer with an efficient broker, many commodities arrived reasonably quickly in the transition era.
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BRAKIEIts not a pretty story why shippers turn to trucks.
Russell
csxns Did the trucking compaines have rules back then when i lived in Cherryville NC home of Carolina Freight Carriers drivers bragged how they will drive long hours and run 3 to 4 log books and know drivers that drove for Roadway,CF and PPG industries when they had their own trucking one driver their bragged how they took boxcar loads from SCL and he said as long we can cheat we will take more.
Did the trucking compaines have rules back then when i lived in Cherryville NC home of Carolina Freight Carriers drivers bragged how they will drive long hours and run 3 to 4 log books and know drivers that drove for Roadway,CF and PPG industries when they had their own trucking one driver their bragged how they took boxcar loads from SCL and he said as long we can cheat we will take more.
And the highway havoc caused by sleep-deprived drugged-up truckers led directly to the Federal mandates we know and (don't) love.
If a coal dealer had a predictable requirement and a good broker, the broker could frequently snag a car of coal on the roll - shuttling around awaiting final delivery instructions. That car might be delivered by the next local freight.
OTOH, regular users of rail delivered products were well aware of the long order-to-delivery time and would allow for it. FedEx doesn't offer overnight delivery of coal, structural steel and marble slabs.
Chuck
csxns BRAKIE Its not a pretty story why shippers turn to trucks. Did the trucking compaines have rules back then when i lived in Cherryville NC home of Carolina Freight Carriers drivers bragged how they will drive long hours and run 3 to 4 log books and know drivers that drove for Roadway,CF and PPG industries when they had their own trucking one driver their bragged how they took boxcar loads from SCL and he said as long we can cheat we will take more.
BRAKIE Its not a pretty story why shippers turn to trucks.
Russell, The railroads used to be allowed 16 hours on duty IIRC, I have been driving truck for almost 28 years, over 30 if you include my straight truck time, our longest allowable drive time, when I started, was 10 behind the wheel, with 15 hours total on duty time. Several years ago (1994?) they changed the HOS rules to 11 BTW(behind the wheel) and 14 TOD (Total on Duty) , BUT, that 14 hours was from initial Time on duty, regardless of any off duty time within that 14, with a minimum time between shifts of at least 10 hours.
When did the railroads start having to work within HOS rules? Yep, some truckers did, and still do "Cheat" but for some of that time, it was leveling the playing field, it is okay for one crew to work 16 hours, but different rules for another transportation profession. back then the RR's had much more political influence than the trucking industry had, it is no wonder that they were allowed longer HOS rules. And don't think that the RR's didn't try to politically hamper the trucking industry in any way they could, such as lobbying for tighter trucking HOS rules, than they were subject to themselves.
Cheating did/still does happen, mostly by independant owner/operators, but it is not as wide spread as many think or want to portray. My carrier still uses paper log books, but has an independant company review them for violations. Electronic Logging Devices will be MANDATORY by December 16th, 2017, after which "Cheating" will be very difficult, though I an sure some will figure out a way. Although, not mandatory until 12/2017, there are already many companies using ELD's, most Large carriers have discouraged cheating for years, the Liability of an accident, especially a fatal one, involving a driver over his HOS, is just too great.
I suspect the average truck driver knows more about the railroads, than the average railfan knows about trucking. Also I think many people would be surprised at how many truckers are also railfans. In the ideal world, trucking and railroading would work in sync, we're getting closer, but still have a long way to go.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
challenger3980(1994?)
challenger3980almost 28 years, over 30 if you include my straight truck time, our longest
challenger3980And don't think that the RR's didn't try to politically hamper the trucking industry in any way they could, such as lobbying for tighter trucking HOS rules, than they were subject to themselves.
challenger3980Cheating did/still does happen, mostly by independant owner/operators
There was a time when trucking regulations said that a truck could only go one way and on the return trip it had to be empty. It was deregulation in the 1970s that ended that rule and led to the independent trucking industry. Before that trucks were mostly owned by big companies.
j.........
No.. The drivers could drive 24 hours or more straight and many did and here's why.
If those 18 wheels not turning there's no pay and the trucking companies encourage "fast on time delivery"..
Up until my brother in law retired after 42 years of OTR he bragged about having two log books. I understand today the drivers have to stop and rest because their truck shuts down after X many hours of drive time.
Anyway.. Rail transportation was slow even a reefer could take up to 7-10 days in some cases and needless to say some produce was ruin and meat was spoiled upon arriving at the receiver's door.. It was not a pretty picture. Disgusted shippers left the rails in droves. Trains Magazine of the 50/60s told the story in columns and articles.
Even today terminal dwell time due to the lack of rested crews slow old fashion switching and interchange still plague the railroads in transit time.
BRAKIE because their truck shuts down after X many hours of drive time.
This is NOT TRUE, the truck will not shut down. If the driver drives over his hours, the electonic log will log it and the violation is carved in stone somewhere. Should that companey be checked by DOT ,everybody 's in trouble.
If shut down were true there would be trucks sitting every where, think about getting thru a major city at rush hour, or traffic jam for any reason.
Sorry but that kind of misinformation really bugs me. Yes, I'm an ex driver.
BTW kinda off topic ?
UNCLEBUTCH Sorry but that kind of misinformation really bugs me. Yes, I'm an ex driver.
I was going by what I was told by truckers who I knew while working at the warehouse..
I also know you see 18 wheelers jammed up at rest stops and some times on entrance/exit access roads.
You ask how long it took a freight car to travel and I told you from straight up information that I learn while working as a brakeman and again when I bumped into rail car unloading at the warehouse-we received 10-15 boxcars a week. I also do a lot of reading on the subject of railroads.
BTW Railroads and trucks go hand in hand.
csxns challenger3980 (1994?) This was in the 60's 70's.
challenger3980 (1994?)
This was in the 60's 70's.
Russell, when I started driving tractor trailer, is was definitely 14 hours BTW, 15 hours OD, but any time off duty could stretch your 15 hours on duty time beyond 15 hours from initial starting duty time, which you no longer can do today.
Thinking more about it, it may have been 2004(for some reason I keeping thinking it was in a "4" year) I started with my current company in 2002, and I am pretty sure we were still under the 10/15 rules when I started there. In the last 10 years there have been so many HOS rule changes that, it is hard to kep track of when they changed, more important to keep up with the current silly changes, that I have to work with right now, heaven forbid think about what is NEXT.
challenger3980Russell, when I started driving tractor trailer, is was definitely 14 hours BTW, 15 hours OD, but any time off duty could stretch your 15 hours on duty time beyond 15 hours from initial starting duty time, which you no longer can do today. Thinking more about it, it may have been 2004(for some reason I keeping thinking it was in a "4" year) I started with my current company in 2002, and I am pretty sure we were still under the 10/15 rules when I started there. In the last 10 years there have been so many HOS rule changes that, it is hard to kep track of when they changed, more important to keep up with the current silly changes, that I have to work with right now, heaven forbid think about what is NEXT. Doug
The original question was about coal and did not involve a diversion in transit. Still, even with reefers the whole process of ordering a car to getting to customer was a week or more, its just the customer only "saw" the last day or two, the broker (and railroad) saw the whole car cycle.
There was a day in icing, cleaning and inspecting the empty reefer, a day to have it spotted and loaded, a day to have it pulled and get it on the outbound train, even on expedited trains, it was 5-7 days from coast to coast, then a day or two to get the car from wherever the expedited train landed to the customer.
In reality, to your point, both the coal company/broker and the perishable company/broker would know they had a certain demand so they would produce and load cars without necessarily having a specific order for a specific car. They would load cars and then ship them, diverting them to customers as required, so the coal question might have in reality involved a diversion enroute (although that wasn't the original premise).
When I worked in car control in the early 1980's, customers would order cars up to a month in advance and the railroad only applied the cars to the orders a week in advance. Applying cars to a car order too early means the empty cars just sit around waiting to be loaded and that deprives other customers of empties to load. There are only a fixed number of cars for any given commodity and when business is good, car supply will be short.
For example in the late 1970's and early 1980's gons were in short supply (why RailGon dates from 1979) so if you wanted a gon you could be waiting a week or two for your order to be filled. If the shipment was going to Mexico or off line it would be later rather than sooner. If the shipment was from an on line customer to an on line customer then there were less restrictions on which gons could be applied meaning a bigger pool and chances of finding an avilable car closer to the the shipper.
In years gone by grain harvest was always a time for complaints about car supply and railroad kept miles of empty boxcars stitting there for months so they could be used for the 3-6 trips they would make during harvest season. That changed with unit trains and dedicated shuttle trains of covered hoppers in the late 1980's. Instead of 40 ton boxcars, 100 ton covered hoppers over doubled the capacity of a single car, top loading/self clearing cars shortened loading/unloading times. Currently railroads move more grain, more efficiently with fewer cars.
Back around 1989-1991 shipping equipment on chain down flats was constrained because the supply of flats was restricted. Why? Because the DOD put in car orders for huge numbers of those flats to move military impedimentia for Desert Storm. If you wanted to ship a load of earth movers, you might have to wait a bit for an available one to surface and be moved to your industry.
The worst case scenario are the heavy, excess dimensional load cars. There are only a couple hundred of those cars and they can be booked years in a advance for some of those moves.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Dave,you know much more about the prototype than I ever will. However, I think my comments answered the actual question the Original Poster posed:
UNCLEBUTCHHow long after that call, do you think, he could expect his load ?
dehusmanthe customer only "saw" the last day or two
That was my point. As Dave H. correctly points out, whether coal or berries, for many commodities the actual time the final customer waited after calling a broker could be quite short. The empties management, car cleaning, provisioning, etc. went on "behind the scenes" -- again for some commodities, not all. But this wouldn't affect the end customer.
For those that believe rail transportation is fast.
Ask any shipper,read Trains Magazine,speak to railroaders do research since its been documented time after time after time beyond counting...Rail transportation is still slow and always will be.UPS screams the loudest of the loud.
While a intermodal speed averages 28-35 mph trucks run 70 mph on Interstates. Freight cars can sit in a clogged yard up to 40 hours or two-three days on a interchange while that 18 wheeler is moving.
Not Coal.
In the 1990's, and late 1980's, we received polyol, shipped by Bayer in Brownsville Texas to GM Oshawa, Ont. A 180,000 lb load normally took six days to arrive.
A 40,000 lb truck load with 2 drivers took between 40 and 48 hrs. The railroad was cheaper and therefore preferred.
Then our plant got a new owner and he had the rail spur taken out, because the deal had been that the plant paid the federal taxes on the spur, and he refused.
Dave
Dave, Coal is even worst then other freight a unit coal train average speed is a scorching 16-25 mph..If there is coal mixed in a manifest then the average speed is 16-30 mph.
These average speeds is noted on weekly performance reports that is produce by the AAR and the average train speeds will vary from road to road..
As far as spurs,the warehouse where I worked own the spur and the majority of the industries I switched when I worked as a brakeman the railroad's track ended at the gate or 2 car lengths from the derail.
Our ETT had lots of restriction notes due to the condition of a industry spur and those restrictions could cover the weight of the locomotive and car..One industry's track was embargoed after several derailments.. Mind you this was between 66-69 and 78-84.
BRAKIEtrucks run 70 mph on Interstates
csxns BRAKIE trucks run 70 mph on Interstates No wonder their are many wrecks with big rigs.
BRAKIE trucks run 70 mph on Interstates
No wonder their are many wrecks with big rigs.
I went to the doctors today in Mansfield on US.30 and I was running the legal speed of 70 and was still being passed by cars and 18 wheelers.
The good part I finally seen a Ashland Ry GP38.
Just for clarity, the speeds reported to the STB and AAR are average speeds over the whole trip, from departure at origin to arrival at FINAL destination. They include all intermediate stops for train meets, crew changes, set outs, pick ups, and fueling. Just because the average speed is 30-40 mph that doesn't mean they aren't moving at 70 mph on the main track.
The premium intermodal product is competitive, timewise, with long distance trucks.
Coal has no time constraint. There is no benefit to the customer to get coal 6 hours sooner and there is a HUGE cost increase moving bulk commodities at high speed.
The book Rails to Penn State refers to Penn State being angry with the PRR and Bellefonte Central that it took two weeks for coal to make that trip. It was 28 road miles from the mine at Snow Shoe PA and a truck could do it in under two hours.
dehusmanThe premium intermodal product is competitive, timewise, with long distance trucks.
True only because they don't spend hours standing still because of terminal dwell time still,a truck is faster due to the average IM speeds,lack of a rested crew and other things like crews hitting the law in the boon docks.This is why UPS screams the loudest.
Sure a IM may hit 70 for a short distance if the track speed permits such running but,there are other things that kills that dreamy, starry eyed 70 mph track speed.
Gotta go with AAR's average speeds since they gain their knowledge from the information given by railroads..
NittanyLion The book Rails to Penn State refers to Penn State being angry with the PRR and Bellefonte Central that it took two weeks for coal to make that trip. It was 28 road miles from the mine at Snow Shoe PA and a truck could do it in under two hours.
Chessie had a coke plant customer located in Catlettsburgh Ky that shipped coke to Ashland Steel in Russell Ky-around 10 miles.. 24 hours from pick up to delivery.
The oddity the crew was called out of Huntington,W.Va and the coke was taken into Russell yard and set there until the next day.Ashland Steel is just East of the Russell yard and could have been set out there instead of taken to the yard.
Chessie should have used a shuttle train out of Russell since these train was 100-150 cars in length and could have been picked up and delivered the same day..
On the other hand I've been part of teams that have built the measurement systems that create the data that a railroad gives to the STB and AAR. Their velocity is an average that includes all the stopped and dwell time and includes all varieties of intermodal, so a train that is loaded with UPS is in the same measurement bucket as a train of nothing but bare platforms as is a train of international containers as is a train of empty containers.
Dave,Be that has it may.. I know we have all passed IMs at legal highway speeds. I've even paced them at 45 mph.
I still say the average speed for a IM is spot on.
Ever see those old signs from yesteryear along the ROW that read 50/40? 50 mph passenger 40 mph freight. The last speed marker I saw was on CSX was 45 mph.