I'm working on a WWII German Panzertriebwagen, an armored locomotive and I'm struggling to figure out what a part is. I've tried to research the subject but there were only about 6 made and not a lot of reference material out there.
The first photo is the complete loco and the next shots are the armoring over the locomotive. The part(s) in question are about 100 of these "eye bolts" on the side of the locomotive and carriages. I've racked what brain I have and I had a thought they may be some kind of heat sink, a way of attaching the armor plates or even a way to hook on camo netting or foliage? I'm at a loss.
Can anybody help. Thanks, Terry
A camouflage net normally doesn't get attached to retainers, at least not in my experience, and I am a qualified tank troop leader in the Canadian Armed Forces (retired). They are either draped over the vehicel to be hidden or they are tied up into branches as overhead cover. These eyelets would snag on the netting and make both spreading the net and then removing it in a hurry a real pain in the patoot. Mind you, I wasn't 'there', and know nothing about Wermacht tactics. I could be quite incorrect.
Because this armouring is so large, heavy, and in long panels, it can't be removed and slung with out some consideration of the effects of gravity between cables. Nor put in place the same way for the same problem...sag and breaking. It could be that these eyelets were used for multiple fastening points to distribute the load over more cables. It's just a SWAG. Or, they might have anchored yet another kind of camouflage, maybe an elaborate framework over which a cam net could be more easily deployed.
Sorry, I don't have an answer, but in my experience, cam nets work best if they can be quickly spread over surfaces that don't have protrusions such as radio antennae, gun mounts, storage bins, smoke grenade ejectors or generators, periscopes, episcopes, and gun sights.
Thanks for the reply and I tend to agree that these are not for netting but I'm thinking more about the armor plating. Their Tiger tanks had up to 6 inches of plating with the entire tank weighing about 70 ton. I dont know how thick these were but there may have been a superstructure under the plates and just maybe these bolts connected somehow. Thats my latest SWAG.
Thanks, Terry
Terry:
Just a totally wild guess, but could the eyebolts possibly be for shop cables to lift the armored superstructure off of the locomotive frame for maintainence and/or repair? IIRC, many armored locomotives were regular steamers with built-over armor plate. There's a WWII German armored locomotive that is still owned by the French National Railways and was used for several scenes in the WWII movie THE TRAIN that was a standard steamer with built-over armor plate. I'm wondering if this was also the case with your loco.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I'll venture that they were for attaching camoflauge. Crandell's right in general, not disagreeing with the general thrust of his comments, but this was the sort of asset that needed to move while camoflauged, which isn't usually the case. IIRC, they were used in areas that tended to be open with relatively little cover. You wanted Yak and P-39 pilots to sees bushes, not a train, which they would shoot up anyway just because it was a train, armored or not.
Are there any action shots that could help?
Looked around quickly, will do more later if I can. Best I could come up with was this different armored train: http://worldwartwozone.com/gallery.old/500/medium/55.jpg
It's near the bottom of this forum page, in Italian and some English: http://www.aereimilitari.org/forum/topic/10443-treni-blindati/page-2
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Thanks, this particular locomotive was used to move some of their highest assests, the rail guns. I know they moved the Morser Karl and the K5 (Anzio Annie) but I don't believe it pulled the Dora. Loco's were valuable targets for the allies and this was only one of Germany's armored trains. Anyway I still have no idea....thanks all.
Terry
They were used to tie on branches, which were used alot instead of netting, many pics around of this.
Lima had made the Leopold gun train in the past; I had seen pictures of some armored trains as well. Found the Leopold http://www.modelrailwaysforsale.com/model-trains/MR01204
Ebay has listings for Armored trains as well; this is the sold item listhttp://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=lima+armored+train&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1311.R1.TR3.TRC2.A0.H1.Xarmored+train.TRS0&_nkw=armored+train&_sacat=0
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
If you were anywhere near one of those guns, you'd be a target, too, as well as knowing the dang thing peridocally attracted even more attention. I suspect this only strengthens the argument for camoflauge. The supporting forces for one of those guns were pretty substantial. Besides moving the thing -- which was required for aiming at least in azimuth IIRC -- there was also ammo and support for the large crew that serviced the weapon. A lot of people trying real hard to keep as low a profile as possible...
I remembered that I had seen the Lima models on the Historic Rails catalog; ( http://www.historicrail.com/ )did not fimd them this evening. I did find a couple of other items that may be of interest.
A book on German Armored trains, 1904-1945http://www.historicrail.com/German-Armored-Trains-1904-1945/productinfo/0R10357/
and 3 models at 1/35 scale
A Soviet armored artillery wagonhttp://www.historicrail.com/Soviet-PL-37-Artillery-Wagon-Armored-Train-Car-Kit-1_35-Scale/productinfo/M807451/
And a German armored locohttp://www.historicrail.com/German-Panzerlok-Baureine-57-Kit-1_35-Scale/productinfo/0R86153/
A German tank destroyer wagonhttp://www.historicrail.com/Panzerjaegerwagen-Vol-2-1_35-Kit/productinfo/0R86308/
Also, when my brother was stationed at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, MD in the 1950s, they had the "Anzio Annie" railroad cannon on static display there. No idea what has happened to it in the last 60 years
Annie moved to Fort Lee, VA where I think they were going to build a new Ordinance museum. I don't know the status on that. Pre 9-11 Aberdeen had a big parking lot full of all sorts of tanks from many countries. Like a steam loco, nothing good comes from parking a tank out in the weather for a couple decades with no maintenance.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I sure I've either seen a picture or read somewhere that in the latter stages of the war the German's attached a wire mesh to the sides of armoured vehicles as a defended against rocket attack from aircraft. This kind of stuff is still being used today. Well that's my theory !
Mine was no theory, there are pics.
I saw an old you-tube video on this a few years back and if memory serves, it was used to stow a very heavy canvas cover that required a lot of manpower to pull over the loco. I do stand to be corrected on this though.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
BATMAN I saw an old you-tube video on this a few years back and if memory serves, it was used to stow a very heavy canvas cover that required a lot of manpower to pull over the loco. I do stand to be corrected on this though.
The pic I cited earlier seems to suggest this, as it looked to be a conbination of tarps and some cut vegetation on the armoured railcars depicted in it. If it had to be furled and unfurled regularly, a tarp would be easier and quicker to deploy than netting. It's also the case that while fresh-cut vegetation is pretty effective, it soon wilts, so an assignment to something operating in a limited area like moving railway artillery would require regular replenishment.
The use of a chain-link type standoff for added protection to armor revolved around the use of shaped-charges in bazookas and other such infantry weapons that became an issue in the last couple of years of the war. I suspect that's unrelated to the question of armored trains for the most part, which faded on the Western front after their use in Italy in the last part of the war, although the Eastern front was a different matter.
BTW, if pics are known to exist to prove a point, it's rather handy to actually post links, if online, or a book citation, etc, if not. Otherwise, these tend to be rather theoretical, too. I know I can't rely on my memory in many cases, so tend to couch what I think I saw in qualifications, even if I'm pretty sure I saw it, when I can't point to a specific reference.
Armoured Train New York City style...
AKA the MONEY Train... Made collections from stations every night. Same armed curriers, same armed guards, same heavy weapons.
All obsolete now. MTA has armourded trucks doing the same job from up on the streets. With the Advent of vending machines it takes more time to service a station since the station agents have no access to the ticket machines.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Information from "Osprey New Vanguard #140, Armored Trains" by Steve Zaloga.
These were actually built by the Russians as MBV D-2 Armored Rail Cruisers and captured by the Germans in the early stages of the war. The Germans rebuilt them, and substituted a diesel loco for the orginal Russian Loco. On page 34 of the book there is a picture of the rail cruiser in 1941 before it was captured and those eyebolts are being used to hold vegetation onto the armor for camouflage. It is hard to tell from the picture but it appears the leafy branches are tied to the eyebolts. There are a couple of other pictures of them in the book and a brief history of them, how they were operated first by the Soviets and then by the Germans after they captured them.
I'd have to go with Zaloga just because he knows his stuff...wait a minute, guess I do, too...in this case anyway.
Of course, the Germans may have simply used the eyebolts for tarp tiedowns. The pic I cited earlier does seem to indicate at least some vegetation was involved, though. But there seems to be little doubt that was the original intent of the design.
Did a Google search on armored trains, just for grins. Apparently the Polish and Russian armies were big into this kind of thing. Pre-WWII, of course, and obviously planned before anyone realized how seriously aircraft could chew up rail lines. Seems they actually expected to be able to take on enemy infantry and light armor at relatively short range after reaching the front on intact rails.
One of the Russian designs had three tank turrets and an armored cupola. Looked like a battleship.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)