Understanding ribbed boxcars

[tstage]

I seem to be in a musing frame of mind today...

On ribbed boxcars: What's the reasoning and purpose of the ribs?  And why are some horizontal (as seen above) and others vertical?  Thanks.

Tom

["JaBear"]

I hope you’re also in a reading frame of mind Tom.

http://www.riverraisinmodels.com/libraryData/milwhrbox.pdf

Don’t know how they compare to the ExactRail offering, but I obtained two kits from Rib Side Cars.

http://www.ribsidecars.com/

Cheers, the Bear.

[Steven S]

tstage

What's the reasoning and purpose of the ribs?

 

One word: Stiffening.

 

Steve S

[tstage]

That I can undestand, Steve.  However, why are some horizontal ribs and others vertical?  Wouldn't the stiffening forces be different on each?  Was one advantageous for certain type of cargo over other types of cargo?

I'll take a look at Bear's link to see if they address that.

Tom

[gmpullman]

tstage

And why are some horizontal

Hi, Tom

One consideration in designing cars — and highway trailers for that matter — is the abuse these vehicles get at the loading docks. Forklift drivers can be more concerned with getting the job done quickly and may not take the time to perform the task at hand without the occasional scrape, or worse!

So, besides protecting the lading, much of the protective surfaces were designed to glance off any impact from the loading equipment.

Not that this is the only consideration, but it is part of the reason behind the horizontal orientation.

Regards, Ed

[tstage]

I appreciate the comments so far, fellas.  From the first link provide by Bear, it appears that the horizontal ribs (produced from 1937-1951) provided two things (See pg. 24):

1. Increased carbody strength
2. Unobstructed interior space for cargo

Also, from pg. 25, horizontal ribbed boxcars were made in "prefabricated subassemblies" then assembled together.  The roof "needed no car body parts to support its individual panels.  This maximized the internal capacity while minimizing the tare (tare) weight" [of the boxcar].  It also mentions that any modifications, design changes, and innovations could be made to any of the subassemblies independently from one another.

Thanks again, Bear, for that link.  VERY interesting stuff.

Tom

[tstage]

gmpullman

tstage

And why are some horizontal

Hi, Tom

One consideration in designing cars — and highway trailers for that matter — is the abuse these vehicles get at the loading docks. Forklift drivers can be more concerned with getting the job done quickly and may not take the time to perform the task at hand without the occasional scrape, or worse!

So, besides protecting the lading, much of the protective surfaces were designed to glance off any impact from the loading equipment.

Not that this is the only consideration, but it is part of the reason behind the horizontal orientation.

Regards, Ed

Ed,

Would that be similar to the use of horizontal metal bracing inside moving vans?

Tom

[gmpullman]

That's part of it, Tom.

I've been just as curious as you regarding methods of shipping and lading and the evolution of the same over the years.

Lots of those horizontal rails have notches in them for attaching various forms of hardware and strapping. I have found all sorts of "dunnage" when items arrive at my employer's docks. 

Inflatable bags, nifty plastic "shoes" that slip on the end of 2 x 4s and brace the load. Years ago we used to ship and recieve thousands of gas cylinders by rail. Our company would work with the railroads and various shipping companies to try to get the cylinders to their destination without looking like a jumbled mess of toothpicks upon arrival. No such luck! I think a "Do Not Hump" plackard was an invitation to couple onto the car at twenty miles an hour!

I'll take a look in some of the carbuilding books I have on hand and see if I can find examples of some of the load stabilizer ideas that have come and gone through the years. Pretty interesting stuff.

I know of a company called Evans that was big into this kind of stuff.

Regards, Ed

[BRAKIE]

One consideration in designing cars — and highway trailers for that matter — is the abuse these vehicles get at the loading docks. Forklift drivers can be more concerned with getting the job done quickly and may not take the time to perform the task at hand without the occasional scrape, or worse!

--------------------------------------

Having operated a forklift for several years I will tell you upfront that's the best way to get fired under careless operation and you will be subject of losing your OSHA forklift operator certification and nobody wanted to lose their "seat" since the pay grade was shall we say excellent with shift deferential?

Any damage a operator does the company insurance has to pay for that damage and that includes freight cars. The insurance company will raise it rates for every accident.

 

[tstage]

So, what advantage or use would a vertical ribbed boxcar have over a horizontal one?

Tom

[DSchmitt]

I hope you’re also in a reading frame of mind Tom.

http://www.riverraisinmodels.com/libraryData/milwhrbox.pdf

Don’t know how they compare to the ExactRail offering, but I obtained two kits from Rib Side Cars.

http://www.ribsidecars.com/

Cheers, the Bear.

 

I wonder what the reason for the door design of 40' double door automobile box car MILW 6675 was.   It appears it may have two separate single doors, not a double width door opening. I have never seen or heard of that before. Did any other railroad have a similar design?  Also the left door is wider than the right door.

On further study it looks like  the wider left hand door has been made even wider by welding an extension to it. In which case the car does have a single wide opening. 

Definately a unusual design.

 

["JaBear"]

tstage

So, what advantage or use would a vertical ribbed boxcar have over a horizontal one?

Pure speculation on my part, but none.

While an over simplification, box cars were developed to keep the weather off the cargo, the main load bearing strength being required in the floor and under frame.  The sides and roof were only required to be robust enough to withstand the rigours of rail travel and not to collapse on their cargo.

http://www.american-rails.com/boxcars.html

 I would suggest that for whatever reason the Design Team at the Milwaukee Road decided that the rib side method of construction not only suited their design philosophy but was also economically sound at that time.

Not that it is important in the greater scheme of things, what I can’t work out is whether the ribs were “pressed” or “rolled”. Rolled would make more sense, to me, because they could just cut the length required, be it for a passenger car, boxcar, or caboose. The downfall to my rolled argument is that by using a press the ends would be “sealed” by the process.

Cheers, the Bear.

[ACY Tom]

A friend did a close examination of the design several years ago in preparation for doing the patterns for Sunshine's resin kit for the Milwaukee Road cars.  He examined original construction drawings and made a visit to the Illinois Railway Museum to do a first-hand examination of the cars.   I don't know whether he ever determined anything about the structural strength issues. The edges of each panel were formed into a shape that would interlock with the adjoining panel with minimal use of fasteners.

Tom

[wp8thsub]

tstage

And why are some horizontal (as seen above) and others vertical?

Much of the reason for these variations in freight cars lies with experimentation and opinion rather than any objective advantage.  Different roads' engineering/mechanical people came up with different ways to design cars, and if they were successful, thousands of a particular design could be built.  The originators often felt a sense of pride in developing something unique that worked, regardless of whether there was any demonstrable improvement over some other idea.  Something like the MILW rib-side cars could be welcomed as part of the corporate identity.

In many cases, other roads don't see the same advantages and don't copy the design.  Baltimore & Ohio liked their "wagon top" cars, but nobody else really did, to cite another example.

In some instances, a railroad would persevere with a particular design out of apparent stubborness, even after that design proved inferior.  Pennsy's 2D-F8 truck had weak sideframe castings which were prone to cracking around the spring box, but Pennsy continued to manufacture it after better sideframes were developed by others.

Freight car manufacturers also came up with their own ways of doing things, which may or may not have been better than what others did.  Pullman Standard had their own unique ends and roofs.  They weren't necessarily better or worse than what another builder like ACF used, just different.

[7j43k]

DSchmitt

 

I wonder what the reason for the door design of 40' double door automobile box car MILW 6675 was.   It appears it may have two separate single doors, not a double width door opening. 

 

 

From ORER, the door opening for this car is listed as 12' 5" wide.  It does have a "double width door opening".

 

Ed

[challenger3980]

If you are also talking about wood sided as well as steel, they may not be "Ribbed" but rather Out sided braced single sheathed" boxcars, where the sheathing is on the inside of the car affording a smoother interior wall, and having the wall framing on the outside.

Some cars, particularly refers, were double sheathed, and the wall framing was completely hidden, but still there.

The only horizontal interior bracing that I ever saw on furniture, dry or refer vans was either a raised padded rail(in furniture vans) that a rope or strap could be passed between the rail and wall for securing the load, or "E-Rail" that had slots, usually vertically oriented, that straps or bars could lock into.

"Logistics Posts" are typically arranged vertically, with the slots also vertically oriented, the slots in these are identical to "E Rail" and accept standard straps, but are also used with "Decking Bars" to create multi-level decks in furntiure and other vans to maximize the loading of the cargo space.

 As with anything there are exceptions, and where I work now, we have two "Squeeze" trailers that have horizontal logistics rail(4 rows per wall). These are very specialized trailers that we haul large blocks (typically 40"Thick x 86"Wide x 109"Long) of Poly Urethane foam in.  The trailers have a hydraulicly driven chain drive inside that power a "Tower" on either side of the trailer. Typically 15 "Buns" are loaded into a 53' trailer, then reinforced aluminum panels(Doors) are placed against the last bun, a pair of heavy duty aluminum I Beams are placed across the doors between the towers, and the towers are advanced until the machinery can no longer compress the foam any further, then decking bars are placed in the logistics rails, and the towers backed off to the rear of the trailer and the I Beams removed and another set of buns, typically 11 or 12 in the second squeeze, the process is repeated usually up to 5 squeezes with some loose behind the final squeeze, until the trailer is full, or the full order is complete.

 I don't know the maximum time that the foam is allowed to be "Sqeezed", but my company's goal is keep the load under pressure for 24 hours or less when possible, and we try to schedule our loding/unloading accordingly, but I have heard of a competitor having loads sqeezed for up to 3 days. The customers typically allow the compressed foam 24 hours before cutting for furniture use.

Depending on the bun density and thickness (The buns are stood vertically in the trailer) 15 or 16(not to often) will fit loose on a 53' trailer and I have loaded/unloaded as many as 62 (Very soft and not as thick) and more typically 50-52 buns on a 53' trailer. Being able to get typically more than three"Loads" on a trailer goes a long way to making a run more profitable. Depending on how quick the loading/unloading crews are, (and if they have the proper equippment) it takes 2-3 hours to load/unload. Having a clamp equipped fork lift definitely speeds up the process, but several of our customers still use standard forklifts, it is doable, but definitely slows the process.

I have never heard of railcars being Squeeze" loaded, and end loading maximizes the efficiency of the system, it could be done with a dual opposing squeezing center to ends system. With the low weight of the cargo(my GROSS weight, 3 axle tractor and fully loaded trailer is usually about 51,000#) an 89' boxcar should still cube out before scaling out. The down side is it is a niche market with somewhat expensive equipment, it would most likely be privately owned cars, but with the 3-4 X capacity would have the ability to offset the cost of empty moves to returncars for loading.

I work out of our Portland, OR plant, and have been serving a customer in Nampa, ID(near Boise) for quite a few years, and have also recently started serving a Salt Lake City, UT customer that a common carrier hauling our trailer has not been very reliable about being available, had been doing.

Doug

[7j43k]

There's been some talk in this column about "vertical" ribs on freight/box cars.  I'd sure like to see an example.  The only one that comes to mind for me in Pennsy's G32C gons:

 

 In this case, you'll note that the ribs span the smaller dimension of the panels. 

When ribs are impressed in metal for strengthening a panel, it is best to have the ribs span the narrower distance.  For a boxcar that commonly has framing members at the top and bottom of the sides and has vertical posts between the two, it would make no sense for vertical ribs in the side panels because they'd be spanning about 10 feet instead of maybe 2 feet.  If there were also horizontal structural elements spaced less than 2 feet apart, vertical strengthening ribs could make sense.

 As Doug has just mentioned, there's lotsa boxcars out there with vertical elements visible.  Those are commonly called posts, not ribs.  They are NOT stamped into the side sheets as they are in the Milwaukee car under discussion.

With the Milwaukee boxcars, the side panels are certainly interesting.  They were made up of sheet steel pieces 13' 11" long and about 18" wide (tall).  There was a rib running along the bottom of each sheet 1 3/4" up.  When installed, that rib covered the attachment points of the sheet below, which were 1 3/4" from the top.  It appears that the sheets were riveted or bolted to the vertical posts of the car.  Those posts were spaced at about 28" apart, much closer together than typical boxcars.  I have the impression that the lower edge of a piece was continuously welded along the seam with the piece below after assembly.

So, besides stiffening the side sheets, the rib also covered over the mounting projection of the panel below it.  And it kept that fastener weather protected.  The whole system was pretty much like shingle roofing.

Contrary to earlier statements here the ribs contributed nothing to enlarging the interior space, as the insides were sheathed with wood laid over the vertical posts.  The ribs had nothing to do with lading tie down or clearance.

 

 

Ed

 

 

[tstage]

Ed,

Sorry for the incorrect and nebulous terminology on my part.

When I was referring to "vertical" ribs I was thinking of the pronouced ribs on these later-era MILW boxcars,

which appear to be similar to the ones found on these covered hoppers;

NOT the one's found on the older 6- & 8-panel outside braced wood boxcars:

Tom

[wp8thsub]

tstage

When I was referring to "vertical" ribs I was thinking of the pronouced ribs on these later-era MILW boxcars... which appear to be similar to the ones found on these covered hoppers...

The later cars are basically off-the-shelf Pullman Standard designs with exterior posts between the flat side sheets.  Numerous customers bought them, in several variations with different cubic capacities.  Other manufacturers use an almost identical arrangement.

The earlier cars with the horizontal ribs were an in-house MILW design, built by their own shiops.

[7j43k]

Tom,

Gotcha.

On the modern cars, those verticals are doing two things.  They're keeping the roof and the underframe apart.  Yes, apart.  And they are also keeping the side sheets in one plane, because the sides contribute to the strength and rigidity of the car.  Those side posts are acting very much like the ribs you see on the side of girder bridges.  Without the side posts, the car would fall apart.  With a load in a train, for sure.  Maybe just sitting empty on a siding would be OK.

"Regular" old boxcars--the generic steel ones from the '40's--did the same thing.  It's just that they had the posts on the inside, where they didn't show.  And then the inside of the car was covered with wood.  By going to the modern version, you don't need that wood lining anymore, to present a smooth interior wall.

That last one you show is the wild card.  THAT one does NOT use the side sheathing for strength.  Those wood planks could all fall off the car, and it would still work great.  Though the load would be perilously exposed.

And I'll also throw in the "double-sheathed" cars.  Those go WAY back.  They're pretty much like the oldie we just talked about.  Except they covered over the framing that you see with (non-structural) wood.  Also, said framing tended to be wood.  And needed the outer sheath to keep the weather off.

 

Ed

[tstage]

Thanks, Ed.  I appreciate the explanations.

The outside-braced "panel" boxcars are among my favorites; primarily because of their visual interest.  Makes me all the more glad that I'm modeling the 40s.

Tom

["JaBear"]

I too would like to add my thanks to Ed, and Rob for their explanations, especially Eds’ on the actual “stamped” panels. As an aircraft maintenance engineer who specialised in structural repairs I’m well aware of the different methods on how strength is added to light materials, it’s just that I can’t make the assumption if and how the same criteria applies to railroad freight cars.

Out of curiosity, on the subject of sides, do any of the US railroads have “Curtain side” freight cars?

http://nzrailwaysrollingstocklists.weebly.com/zhc---curtainside-of-2012.html

Thanks also to Tom for his interesting muse.

Cheers, the Bear.

[7j43k]

 

Out of curiosity, on the subject of sides, do any of the US railroads have “Curtain side” freight cars?

 

 

I haven't seen anything like those cars here.  

I suspect many of our citizens would view them as "zip lok access" cars.  Americans' free enterprise tendencies can be pretty vigorous.

 

Ed 

[doctorwayne]

wp8thsub

...In many cases, other roads don't see the same advantages and don't copy the design. Baltimore & Ohio liked their "wagon top" cars, but nobody else really did, to cite another example....

While not identical to the B&O cars, this experimental design by CPR predated them by, if I recall correctly, about 20 years:

Wayne

[Guy Papillon]

Wayne,

Do you know if any model of this car exist?

Tom,

Thank you for starting this very instructive thread.

[wp8thsub]

doctorwayne

While not identical to the B&O cars, this experimental design by CPR predated them by, if I recall correctly, about 20 years...

A major difference between the two appears to be the CP design using separate roof panels, while B&O used a continuous sheet that bypassed this seam.  I wonder if anyone with the B&O was aware of the older CP idea when the wagontop was developed?

[wjstix]

IIRC the Milwaukee boxcars with horizontal ribs were built bythe Milwaukee Road in their own shops. Unlike a 'normal' steel boxcar, which had panels that were riveted together in vertical strips, they used horizontal sections that were welded together. It may be in large part just that doing it that way was what the Milwaukee shops were used to doing, since they had used the same technique in building "Hiawatha" passenger cars.

http://trainweb.org/hiawatha/Mitchell.jpg

[chutton01]

Out of curiosity, on the subject of sides, do any of the US railroads have “Curtain side” freight cars?

http://nzrailwaysrollingstocklists.weebly.com/zhc---curtainside-of-2012.html

North American railroad barely had any all-door boxcars (either roll-up doors like the Southern version or sliding doors like the Thrall-Door and Evans Side-Slider ones), let alone curtain side ones (there were possibly some one-off curtain sides - there always seems to be some one-offs).  Too bad, seems like a great idea, but I guess between widespread adoption of bulkhead & centerbeam flats with covered lading, and wide forklift friendly doors on conventional boxcars, the extra expense in door latching and roller hardware doomed them.

In fact, there's not all that many curtain sided truck trailers in North America (there are some, but only a small percent of the fleet) - perhaps too labor intensive to tighten all those straps along the bottom edge of the side.

BTW, I see from the link the Kiwi graffiti artists have adapted to the new fabric on those rebuilt cargo wagons...

[challenger3980]

chutton01  Wrote:

In fact, there's not all that many curtain sided truck trailers in North America (there are some, but only a small percent of the fleet) - perhaps too labor intensive to tighten all those straps along the bottom edge of the side.

 

You must not live in the PNW, or any where that lumber is transported much.

Maybe being a professional driver, I notice the equipment more than those in other occupations, but out west there is no shortage of curtain vans.

 As to "Tightening all those straps" being too labor intensive, it is much FASTER, less labor intensive and MUCH SAFER, than climbing on top of the load to tarp it,and untarp, and roll up those tarps at the unload, which would be the alternative to just about any load, that is moving in a curtain van.

In regards to the security and pilferage problems with curtain van rail cars, the typical loads that would be carried in curtain sided cars, would be of the lower value(not that lumber is CHEAP) high volume cargoes, that wouldn't be likely to be stolen. It is not IPADs, large screen TVs and cell phones that would be hauled in curtain sided cars, how often is steel stolen off of flatcars?

 to steal a worthwhile amount of lumber, you would need at minimum a heavy pick up truck pulling a decent sized flatbed trailer, and least 2 and preferably 4 men to toss the lumber off the rail car, and load it on to the trailer, this would be time consuming HARD labor, something that most theifs avoid like the plague.

Lumber is not an easy to sell, high value commodity like electronics. You may find some unscrupulous builders that might bite, but it would be at a signifcantly reduced price, which takes you back to the High labor/low return that most theifs avoid at all cost.

Doug

more than 27 years, 2,500,000 miles moving America's freight

 

 

[chutton01]

challenger3980

chutton01  Wrote:

In fact, there's not all that many curtain sided truck trailers in North America (there are some, but only a small percent of the fleet) - perhaps too labor intensive to tighten all those straps along the bottom edge of the side.

 

You must not live in the PNW, or any where that lumber is transported much.

Maybe being a professional driver, I notice the equipment more than those in other occupations, but out west there is no shortage of curtain vans.

 As to "Tightening all those straps" being too labor intensive, it is much FASTER, less labor intensive and MUCH SAFER, than climbing on top of the load to tarp it,and untarp, and roll up those tarps at the unload, which would be the alternative to just about any load, that is moving in a curtain van

Note I added a caveat - I said small percentage of the NA fleet. Quite true I do not live in the PNW, but instead on the opposite side of the country, where curtain sides are pretty uncommon even in the docks & transload areas of New York & New Jersey, while bog-standard dry-van trailers stretch as far as the eye can see.

Interesting to me, there seems to be a implicit rule that curtain side trailers are NOT to be considered dry vans, for example note this site from Utility Van makes a clear distinction between the two (why do I know about Utility trailers - because last fall I got a bunch of HO scale 53ft Utility dry-vans at the dollar store - pulled off the "Ice Road Truckers" stickers, and the models are actually pretty good - just needed the frame painted flat aluminum, the underside dark grey, and an overall coat of dull-cote)

As to lumber, since where I live (Long Island) lumber is mostly shipped uncovered on flatbeds to the Home Depots, Lowes, and other small lumberyards; loads are occasionally tarped, usually not, but more often come wrapped like you see on centerbeams. I've seen a few curtain sides in the area, but they were used for plumbing and other tradesmen.

And since this info may be of interest to vehicle modelers, there is another sort of curtain side system for flatbed trailers, Conestoga "tarp" system, which allows overhead loading/unloading. Interesting.