Redore Remember that the new shift has to be at the mine before the old shift leaves to get changed into work clothes etc. The old shift then has to wash up and change into street clothes before they can leave. This means the employee conveyance stays at the "public" point during the shift and is only at the mine for an hour or so at shift change. Also if there are 100 employees on 8 hour shifts, with a 3 shift per day, seven days a week operation that's four crews of 25 people to cover the shifts with 40 hour weeks. Not very many on each shift. One shift a week is either for repairs or is a rotating overtime day for the crews. We called this 21'st shift. If there are day people like mechanics, office people, electricians, etc., the count on shift rotation gets smaller. The iron mines in Quebec and Labrador had towns built in the 50's adjacent to them (Sept Isles, Lac Jeannine, Fremont, Labrador City, and Shefferville). Until recently they were isolated by road from the rest of the world but the employees still mainly had cars. There is still, I believe, passenger service on the QNS&L and on the First Nations line that took over the QNS&L north of Lab City, but most fly if they have to go to civilization.
Remember that the new shift has to be at the mine before the old shift leaves to get changed into work clothes etc. The old shift then has to wash up and change into street clothes before they can leave. This means the employee conveyance stays at the "public" point during the shift and is only at the mine for an hour or so at shift change.
Also if there are 100 employees on 8 hour shifts, with a 3 shift per day, seven days a week operation that's four crews of 25 people to cover the shifts with 40 hour weeks. Not very many on each shift. One shift a week is either for repairs or is a rotating overtime day for the crews. We called this 21'st shift. If there are day people like mechanics, office people, electricians, etc., the count on shift rotation gets smaller.
The iron mines in Quebec and Labrador had towns built in the 50's adjacent to them (Sept Isles, Lac Jeannine, Fremont, Labrador City, and Shefferville). Until recently they were isolated by road from the rest of the world but the employees still mainly had cars. There is still, I believe, passenger service on the QNS&L and on the First Nations line that took over the QNS&L north of Lab City, but most fly if they have to go to civilization.
They still do not only the QNS&L but a few others too, but those miners work there for week long shifts or other types of sheduals that they take those trains to get to the mine and back but to on the same day, similar to fireman that work away from home and stay on duty there and come back on their days off.
Mike, In the coal fields of Southern Ohio and the Appalachian regions company towns was near the mines even today a lot of the small rural towns in these areas started life as a company town.
Even back in the old days the mine owners wanted their workers nearby and would hire doctors to tend to the injured and sick workers as well as their family. All paycheck deductible-except for the injured miner.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I suspect that's because there were no alternatives with people being sparesly settled relative to other locations. Not always possible. I guess my point was is that one size doesn't fit all and that changes like this take place over longer periods of time and more incrementally than we often imagine in retrospect. Yes, the car made an immediate impact, but RRs lingered for a long time, long enough that in many places WWII brought back traffic in locations where it made sense. Scattered on farms and in small towns across the UP and Minnesota meant there often wasn't a RR nearby that had enough people along it to justify passenger ops, even in war.
And steel was a very high priority, you're absolutely right.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
In WWII, a miner was considered a critical occupation and miners receved extra gas rations and tire rations, and even deferments until late in the war. At leat that's how it was in Minnesota's iron mines.
Mike,Keep in mind lots of large manufacturers has several assembly plants in its plant complex and therefore would have several parking areas inside the plant..
Coal mines would need access roads in case of a cave in-no railroad would keep a engine and 5 man crew tied up between shifts in case of that cave in happen.
OF course some short lines that served one or two mines would keep a "mine rescue" train ready but,the railroad would need to sound a emergency whistle( usually located at the roundhouse) to call a off duty crew,off duty miners and first responders. This operation usually died a quick death once roads was built to the mine.Cars and trucks was faster since old #9 would need its steam brought up to operating pressure and then coupled,pump up the air on its train while awaiting clearance to depart...
Even in the horse and wagon days there was usually a wagon trail to the mine.
In WW2 extra gas was alloted for emergency workers( doctors,volunteer fire fighters etc) and emergency vehicles.
One thing to keep in mind about the Celanese facility was its size. Employers are also inclined to control employees on the grounds. Who wants all those employees driving all over the plant if you're in management? Combine the two and the case for a plant RR transporting workers becomes more clear.
Something else to keep in mind regarding the original question, although passenger traffic on intra-plant RRs in general is a wider subject, were the management practices of the steel companies, who owned many mines, and the similar practices of big coal companies. They tended to be rather paranoid about two things: labor organizing and industrial spying. That's why it's often hard to document steel and many mining operations, because they made an effort to prevent any except a limited number official photos from leaking out. Letting workers drive all over the place was seen as problematic from that point of view, although as the auto spread, it was something they eventually let go of in terms of workers driving onto the plant.
The auto made inroads in car transport, but I'd bet we'd find many of these such ops held on until WWII, when rationing forced many out of their cars and back onto the rails in some form. A good example was an ammunition plant west of Decatur, IL (far enough west so that if anything went wrong... ), which happened to have the Illinois Terminal line runningt through it. Now, the plant was a product of the war (unlike some examples) and most workers likely came from Deactur, so the IT scraped together enough rolling stock to service that need. It was the postwar period that finally killed off the survivors as Americans started buying and using cars again.
Interesting story but,one that dates back to 1918. As the years rolled by and automobiles and improved roads made their appearance such services was no longer needed by the public.
Even those period photos doesn't tell the story of what happen after the coming of the automobile,trucks and improved roads and the love of these "horseless" carriage the public had for these modern marvels of personal transportation.
Not a mine but a chemical plant: (from a Wikipedia article)
A Celanese plant was located at Amcelle, Maryland between Cumberland and Cresaptown. The plant was served by the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad (B&O), and was a major consumer of coal. It received bulk shipments of industrial chemicals and raw cotton fiber, and shipped out its fabric products in quantity. The B&O also provided passenger service to the plant, for Celanese workers. The plant had its own extensive networks of rail lines on the property. It became a major employer in Allegany County, and most families in the area have one or more relatives that worked for the plant at its peak. At one time, 13,000 employees worked there.
Wiki article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celanese
I was curious about my Celanese three dome tank cars and when I looked up the history of the company I came across that mention about the B&O providing transportation. I'm even more curious now, I'd like to find some photos of the facility.
Just an interesting observation, Ed
Different country, different situation.
In the late 1950s, when I was minefanning in Kyushu, the average working person did NOT have a personal motor vehicle. Bicycles and bicycles with mini-engines were big, but three and four wheelers weren't. For any distance the choice was train (preferred) or bus.
My prototype Class 0 (national monopoly) ran (and apparently still runs) a heavy 'going to work' mainline commuter schedule. The prototype for my mining railroad (a branch of the monopoly) had a schedule that meshed with the mainline. Shift change traffic was a 3 car DMU set, which I simulate with two old coaches and teakettles for motive power. At other times, the JNR only ran two cars - and I run a four-wheel rail bus.
That was accurate in 1964. Soon after, the last of the mines closed. Not long after that (1980s) the branch shut down. The main route rails are still in place, but revival of rail service is highly unlikely.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - to the prototype's schedule)
One thing we tend to forget now is how much people walked in the past. I remember seeing something on TV (Biography channel I think, but can't remember who it was) about a kid growing up in rural Pennsylvania who would walk a couple miles every morning with their dad to a river where they kept a rowboat. The kid would row their dad across the river, and the dad would walk a couple more miles to get to his job as a coal miner. The kid would row back across the river, get the boat on shore, and then walk to school. After school, they'd reverse the process to get the dad home.
My point being that workers without autos would have probably found a way to be close enough to the mine property to walk there, not take the train. Once on the property, they might be shuttled to a mine site that was only accessible by rail however.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
It's probably worth considering that this conversation forks in two different directions as applied to modeling, even in the Prototype Info Forum.
One can impose constraints such that only what absolutely can be documented as happening is modeled.
Or one can suppose "What if the prototype faced Situation X? What would happen then?"
Which means there's no absolutely right answer here, unless one decided to model a specific mine as a prototype, in which case I can see the first situation applying.
On the other hand, it's easy to suppose Context Y occurred if you have an appropriate story line to support your What Ifs.
On my layout I presume a number of things brought about a thriving Silverton Branch and sustained growth in the area:
The mines continue to produce silver, etc.
The road network sees relatively little investment.
In part that's because society has made the choice to support a robust railroad network, including passenger trains through favorable tax rates, subsidies.
One could go on, but the important distinction is what the modeler wants to do. Certainly prototype practice is important and should be consulted in any case, but it can also inform the modeling of things that never happened.
`
wjstix Keep in mind the mine probably wasn't new - if it had been around since the early 20th c. or earlier, the miners would have found a way to live close enough to walk to the mine. In the Mesabi iron range, there were typically "locations" 100 years ago, where miners lived to be near their jobs. These could be anything from more-or-less real towns with streets, sidewalks etc. to thrown-together shacks and lean-tos. "I was born one mornin' when the sun didn't shine. I picked up my shovel and I walked to the mine." Merle Travis "Sixteen Tons"
Keep in mind the mine probably wasn't new - if it had been around since the early 20th c. or earlier, the miners would have found a way to live close enough to walk to the mine. In the Mesabi iron range, there were typically "locations" 100 years ago, where miners lived to be near their jobs. These could be anything from more-or-less real towns with streets, sidewalks etc. to thrown-together shacks and lean-tos.
"I was born one mornin' when the sun didn't shine. I picked up my shovel and I walked to the mine." Merle Travis "Sixteen Tons"
By 1960 the locations on the Mesabi were mainly gone. The houses were moved into town and the location site was often dug up or covered up with waste rock. The mining companies didn't want to be in the company house business any more.
Three towns were built from scratch in the 50's, Babbit, Hoyt Lakes, and Silver Bay, but these were full sized towns with privately owned houses and other buildings located within car commuting distance of the new mines.
I don't know of any mine in the Appalachians that didn't have a road or a small town near by simply because if there was a cave in at the mine rescue workers,doctors etc would need to get there in a hurry.
By the 70/80s improved roads would be built for those big coal buckets (18 wheeler with a dump trailer or a standard dump truck) to haul coal to the nearest river port for transloading into barges or the nearest truck dump to rail transload. This gives the mine a choice ship via (say) Chessie or the nearest competitor.
Hello All,
For the eara you mentioned possibly a small switcher; 70-tonner, SW1200, or perhaps an aging RS unit, GP7/9 or H-16-44 or -66, with well-used passenger car(s). Nothing fancy that could be stored on a siding for the duration of the shift while the motive power shuttles hoppers at the tipple.
Depending on the distance of the trip MOW cars could have been used too. On a short run; less than one hour, and depending on the strength of the UMWoA local, the workers might have been packed into a MOW train.
Another option would be, as has been suggested, passenger cars attached to a freight special.
Mines not only ship coal they also use commodities such as Ammonium Nitrite, diesel fuel, rock dust and various large pieces of mining equipment from ventilation fans to ore processing equipment.
These are transported to the mine in covered hoppers, tankers, box- and flat-cars.
"Retired" passenger trains could be added to these trains to transport workers too.
If the mine runs three shifts then dedicated "specials" might be leased from the mainline railroad to shuttle workers.
If the spur is owned my the mine then it is feasible that these specials might be owned by the mine itself.
On my freelance coal pike, set in the 1970's to 1980's, the workers are transported to the mine in a company owned dieselized Doodlebug with a passenger/freight combo for light freight hauls.
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
fieryturbo Let's assume 1960s-70s, 100 workers, and the workers were being picked up from a station on a common carrier railroad, then being taken down a different line, to a mining company owned line and dropped off for the day. At the end of the shift, the same thing would happen again, and the workers would catch a mainline passenger train into town.
Let's assume 1960s-70s, 100 workers, and the workers were being picked up from a station on a common carrier railroad, then being taken down a different line, to a mining company owned line and dropped off for the day. At the end of the shift, the same thing would happen again, and the workers would catch a mainline passenger train into town.
Of course, it's easy to see why buses proved popular, considering the accommodations provided in some locations...
Then again, some places were a little bit RR, a little bit bus...
Other condition that might be considered are; how far as in distance, any grades = power and brakes required on prototype car, weather as in need of heat, cover, shade, lights if operated in darkness, snow if track required a plow or sanders for ice or frost on rail, etc.
Where was 'car' kept when not in use, Shed? In the clear?
Just some thought from my observation at coal and hard rock mines, and in rail lumber camps.
In real life there might have to be some form of Train Control if rails were for car only, or other movements.
Safety First.
Thank You.
In Hibbing MN, Greyhound Bus Lines got started in the 19teens hauling miners from the new town site to the iron mines that were enveloping the old townsite.
By the 60's and 70's the mine locations were gone and most employees drove their own cars or carpooled to the mine.
White Pine, a copper mine in Michigan had private bus lines that hauled employees from up to 80 miles away for each shift. This lasted until the mine closed in the 80's.
You're probably right, Mike. It seems that each mining situation presented its own issues, and there were probably a lot of different solutions to transportation problems. My comments were general in nature. Exceptions were certainly common.
Tom
Tom,
Well, there's Canada that might throw a monkey wrench into that era specificity. Several lines in Quebec/Labrador were in isolated, rather roadless areas. I'd have to check my sources on details, but suspect something like the OP's intention applied in some of these cases from what I recall. Alaska was just about getting past this in the 60s, but could still be a plausible scenario for a remote mining camp.
There may be something similar in the open pit copper mines out West. There, it was the vastness and challanging physical elements of getting around the mine site, so walking to work or driving in wasn't an option. Don't recall rail transport to the mine, but perhaps within the mine?
In that time period, there would be a road, and the miners would drive or be transported by bus. If you and I define a "mainline passenger train" the same way, I doubt that such a train woul be involved during those years.
During earlier time periods, a miner's coach might be attached to the rear of a coal train, as on the East Broad Top. Or a small self-propelled rail car might be used, as on the Buffalo Creek & Gauley. In most cases, many --- maybe most ---early miners lived in Company houses near the mine, and walked to work.
Julian
Modeling Pre-WP merger UP (1974-81)
What era? How many workers per shift? Is mine on spur from common carrier railroad or is it a dedicated mining company owned railroad? Standard gauge or narrow gauge?
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
So if I were building a layout with a mine that was only accessible by rail, and I needed a way of transporting workers, what would I use?