Is my forest logic correct?

[DSchmitt]

Modern log loaders:

http://www.vannattabros.com/iron16.html

Some of the many histotical types, while desinged for use in woods they probably could be asapted for transload:

American Log Loader  

http://www.buffalocreekandgauley.com/ROLLINGSTOCK/ERCL/ERCLRollingStock.html

Barnhart Log Loader

http://www.pbase.com/cwphoto/image/124945707

Decker Log Loader

http://www.trainzone.co.nz/downloads/deckerreadme.htm

Clyde Log Loaders (Catalog 40 page CD with drawings)

http://www.msrailroads.com/Clyde_Loaders.htm

McGiffert Loader (model)

http://www.oil-electric.com/2014/09/mcgiffert-loader.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tbdanny]

wjstix

It's sound like you're talking about how the logs get from the logging area on to the narrow gauge cars. How are the logs to be moved from the narrow-guage cars to the standard gauge - or do the narrow gauge cars serve a sawmill, and the finished lumber is what is shipped out on the standard gauge? 

p.s., the town wouldn't have a 'pub', they'd have a bar - most likely with a sawdust floor. 

 

My apologies.  I meant that the loading dock between the narrow and standard-gauge tracks would have a ramp at one end, up which the logger's dream trucks could reverse to transload logs between the narrow and standard gauge tracks.  I'm still considering whether they'd be transloaded like this, or whether the transloading dock may have a pair of rails built into it, with some sort of hand-cranked, rail-mounted crane running along it.

As for the sawmill, I don't think the BVLC will be serving it's own sawmill.  This is mainly because I haven't the space to model one or the edge of one.

I've also got kits for a general store and a bar on the way over, and I'll be using them to imply that the rest of the town exists in the operator's pit in the middle of the layout.  I enjoy modelling the interior details of buildings, so figuring out how to depict a sawdust floor should be interesting.

[Geared Steam]

7j43k

Quote from Selma M. Neils's "So This is Klickitat" (an excellent book describing the history of the town and the logging that happened there):

 

"...the company [J. Neils Lumber Company] was convinced they should adopt the sustained yield plan in 1939..."

 Ed

 

Thank you Ed

Having grown up in a town founded by the Neils family and logging, we knew how forward thinking they were when they started replanting back in 1939, and the area was surrounded by tree farms.  They logged for almost a century, and the place is now, still full of trees. (Imagine that?) 

Another poster commented on the "devastation" of a clear cut. In may seem that way to some eyes, but clearcuts were always cleaned and burned as to leave little debris on the forest floor, they then came in and replanted. I made some pretty good money in the summers replanting clearcuts.  This is controlled by the US Forest Service. 

[wjstix]

tbdanny

As for transloading the logs, I'm not quite sure how to handle it.  I'm planning to kitbash a couple of 'logger's dream' loaders from Tamiya 1/48 US Army truck kits.  The loading dock will have a ramp up to it, so the truck can just back down to do the loading as needed.

It's sound like you're talking about how the logs get from the logging area on to the narrow gauge cars. How are the logs to be moved from the narrow-guage cars to the standard gauge - or do the narrow gauge cars serve a sawmill, and the finished lumber is what is shipped out on the standard gauge? 

p.s., the town wouldn't have a 'pub', they'd have a bar - most likely with a sawdust floor. 

[tbdanny]

Hi all,

Thanks for the suggestions regarding a town.  I was a bit stuck for inspiration as to what to put between the turntable and the curve around to Camp D.  I'm thinking I may be able to model the edges of a town there.  Maybe a pub and a general store.  It'd make sense for those to be between the BVLC HQ and the town, to catch business from workers going to and fro.  I'm thinking the town could be called 'Arthurton', after the founder of the BVLC.

With regards to the locomotives, I've already modeled them as wood-burners, with the diamond stacks on all except #7.  That has a wire mesh spark arrestor instead.

As for transloading the logs, I'm not quite sure how to handle it.  I'm planning to kitbash a couple of 'logger's dream' loaders from Tamiya 1/48 US Army truck kits.  The loading dock will have a ramp up to it, so the truck can just back down to do the loading as needed.

Lone Wolf & Santa Fe, thank-you for the photos as well.  They'll be very handy indeed.

7j43k, thank you for the book recommendation.  I'll have to check it out.

[7j43k]

Quote from Selma M. Neils's "So This is Klickitat" (an excellent book describing the history of the town and the logging that happened there):

 

"...the company [J. Neils Lumber Company] was convinced they should adopt the sustained yield plan in 1939..."

 

This book immerses you into the life of the town from it's establishment through to the '60's.  Included is extensive discussion of logging and lumber practices over the years.  There are many small photographs, but the best part is the writing.  I think a lot of us feel that you can't model what you can't see--hence, only picture books count.  But words tell us a whole lot: how things were put together, when things were changed, who came and who left and why, and what the impact was, even visually.

 

 

Ed

[Lone Wolf and Santa Fe]

I used to live in Oregon and have seen the devasting results of clear cutting. Large stumps are left to decay and decompose, many of them have bushes growing out of them. The undergrowth is full and covers some of the shorter stumps. There is also leftover logs which were not worth removing laying around.

To effectively model a clear cut forest you need to have a tree line where the forest hasn’t been cut to compare it too. The photo below is a good example, however it shows several small pinetrees which have been planted. Planting trees in clear cut areas did not start unitl the 1970s so all of the growth should be only bushes or other trees since pine doesn't natualy grow unless it is in a forest.

This picture shows what a clear cut looks like after several years.

[7j43k]

Beach Bill

Curious:   How will (assuming at they will) logs be trans-loaded from the narrow gauge to the standard gauge.    I note log cars already positioned at the Camp A yard.   BTW, I thought wstjx's observations to be "astute".   Bill

 

A saw mill was mentioned.  So maybe there is not log transloading.  It's possible that output was all lumber.  I suppose.

If logs are (also) going out, some sort of crane-ish structure will be necessary.  Or a track mounted crane.  With enough reach.  And outriggers.  I suppose if log shipping was VERY rare, logs could be moved with block and tackle, but total pain in the butt!

If there's a sawmill nearby, I think there would have been a standard gage spur built over to it.  Thus no lumber transloading.  But logs, yeah.

 

Ed

[Beach Bill]

Curious:   How will (assuming at they will) logs be trans-loaded from the narrow gauge to the standard gauge.    I note log cars already positioned at the Camp A yard.   BTW, I thought wstjx's observations to be "astute".   Bill

[wjstix]

I'll make a couple of suggestions, but I'm more faimiliar with Minnesota logging railroads than the Pacific Northwest so keep that in mind....

If your "Camp A" has been there for 30-40 years as it sounds, it probably wouldn't be a "camp" anymore. As someone mentioned, logging camps tended to be temporary to semi-permanent at best. Camp A apparently is a permanent place, where logs are hauled to be transloaded unto standard gauge cars. It appears it will have a roundhouse and turntable, indicating that's where the narrow guage engines will be serviced. Most likely, the logging co. will have buildings for storing supplies, and  an office for the paperwork needed to keep track of everything. That means there will be a quite a few men working there, and it's unlikely you'd have men working year-round by themselves for 20-30 years in the middle of nowhere. What you'd have at Camp A is a town, probably with a 'normal' city name (perhaps named after a logging co. official?) with at least a few stores, a gas station (by the 1940's certainly), and houses for the worker's wives and kids - and a school too. OK you're not going to model all that, but "Camp A" would be small town with an identity very different from the logging camps.

Burning wood in steam engines makes sense in an area with a lot of wood around, but it also raises some issues. Wood makes sparks, so wood burning steam engines would need some variation of a 'balloon' stack or spark surpressor, since the last thing you want in an area covered with sawdust, woodchips, dried twigs and branches are sparks setting fires (see "Great HInckley Fire of 1894"). In fact, by the 1940's (really, by WW1) most logging railroads had converted to coal or oil. Fossil fuels were more efficient and easier to use, plus after an area was logged out, wood wouldn't be that easy to come by. Since the logging co. railroad connects with Great Northern, they'd could easily set up a spur track to have GN deliver a car or two of coal or fuel oil for the engines.

[tbdanny]

Hi all,

Thank-you for the replies.  I appreciate the responses, and I've now got a better idea of how the scenery for the BVLC will look.  Thank-you for the suggestions about scrub, moss and forest creatures as well.  I hadn't thought of that, and they're the sort of details that would show up well in O scale.

To clarify some of the points raised, Camp A of the BVLC is where the standard-gauge tracks of the Great Northern Railway meet the logging company's narrow-gauge tracks.  There's an interechange siding right at the end of the camp, which can be seen on the right of the photo below, which was taken looking along Camp A:

The red cross-hatched bit is where I'll be putting a loading dock betwwen the standard and narrow-gauge tracks.  The curve through the backdrop goes to camps B & C, which are 'modeled in staging', so to speak.  The curve in front of the backdrop leads to Camp D, the newest camp, which is the other side of the layout.  I'll also be implying that the sawmill is just 'off-layout', with signage and so on indicating that it 'occupies' the spot I was standing to take the above photo.

I did mean to say 'up' the valley.  I was using 'down' in the sense of 'away from Camp A', with 'up' being towards the camp.  I apologise for any confusion.

I figure that while Camp A is a permanent fixture, Camps B, C and D are the more temporary type that get moved around, and I'll be modelling Camp D as such.  I also figure there'll be a bit of a 'reload' type operation going on at Camp D, with spar poles and maybe a lorry bringing logs in from further afield.  Originally, Camp A is just where the GNR tracks ended, as they couldn't extend further up the valley.  They then decided to use narrow gauge when they established Camp B.

Cheers,
Tbdanny

[mlehman]

Another factor here. Many logging lines were rather itinerant and really didn't have a HQ if they were small. Tools, etc were packed along for the loco just as for other equipment. Without a permanent base, no engine house, water tank (hoses used for suction from ponds and waterways), no ash pit...

On the other hand, an outfit big enough to support shops, warehouses, semi-permanent housing, etc would likely have an ash pit. With a large investment in that infrastructure, management would want close control of potential fire sources. This might help you sort out what's pertinent to your layout.

[7j43k]

A bit of clarification?:  "...and so the narrow gauge railway was built to bring lumber from further down the valley."

I can read that as Camp A being served by a standard gauge line, with a narrow gauge line as an extension.

Or.

I can read that as Camp A being served by a narrow gauge line that was extended.

I think that there would be a difference.  If the track gauge was held constant, then Camp A could easily turn into "a couple of sidings" and little else.  But if there is a gauge change, then there's transloading.  And a real likelihood of a saw mill.  And maybe even a town. After 27 years.  'Cause (some) guys miss their wives after a while.  And if there's a saw mill, there's lumber.  Need I say more?

So, in 2015, the town is called Campa, and a goodly number of townfolk thing the town must have been named after an apparently Italian founding settler.

 

Also the phrase "...built to bring lumber from further down the valley."  Usually, that will be UP the valley.  As railroads tend to follow rivers.  And then go up the valleys to exploit what's there.  That certainly isn't an absolute rule, of course.  With railroading (at that time and place), the rule is "turn a profit".  And if down the valley will do that, then......

 

 

Ed

[rrebell]

Firs and pines can grow up to an additional  5" width a year or as little as almost nothing, it all depends on conditions. You might fiqure in the mid range as less crowding adds to growing.

[wp8thsub]

tbdanny

I'm thinking that there would be some new growth around the camp. I.e. that there would be small trees (around 24' and smaller) around the edges of Camp A, with denser forest behind them (on backdrop). There'd also be stumps, etc. from when the area was logged out the first time.

That basic idea sounds more or less plausible.  Appearance of logged areas may vary greatly by era.  Earlier logging operations didn't necessarily employ clearcutting methods like they do today, and regrowth in earlier years often proceeded naturally (and more slowly).  As a result, some old growth trees may have been allowed to remain to re-seed, and/or were left because they were less desirable species.  Depending on the local conditions, the logged area may have been colonized by broadleaf trees like maples or alders, or brush including blackberry bushes and lots of other things.

[Beach Bill]

yes, that makes sense.   20 yrs in the Pacific NW would foster quite a bit of growth, but it would still be too small to log again.  Thick smaller trees that hadn't naturally thinned themselves out yet through competition, some scrub, and those stumps would have quite a bit of moss on them.  A couple downed trunks that had partially decomposed would add to the look - deep ridges from decay, light color as the bark would be long gone, and some of that moss would be there, too.  One could add in a few small forest creatures in the undergrowth!

As to the ash pit:  From what I've seen in photos and read, most smaller logging lines had absolutely minimal engine servicing facilities.  Most of the time, the fire was cleaned most anywhere that there wasn't too much flamable about.  They were not exactly environmentally concious about where the ashes were dumped, and most of the time it was just along the track.   That said, it would be easy to develop an explanation for a quality ash pit:   Back in the '30's an area forest fire was determined to have been started by locomotive ashes, so the management determined to never pose that risk to their community again.

My eastern logging and coal-hauling line, circa WWI, has an ash pit and a stone roundhouse which would have been quite unusual for a short line - but few things are neater than moving a steam locomotive around the servicing area.

Bill

[tbdanny]

Hi all,

In the backstory I've developed for the Bradford Valley Lumber Co, it's mentioned that in 1921, the area around Camp A was logged out, and so the narrow gauge railway was built to bring lumber from further down the valley.

I model the BVLC as it would have appeared in 1948, having survived the Great Depression and WW2. Being the base of operations for the BVLC (both the logging company and the railroad). Given that it's been 27 years since the area around Camp A was logged out, I'm trying to get an idea of what the environment surrounding Camp A would look like.

I'm thinking that there would be some new growth around the camp. I.e. that there would be small trees (around 24' and smaller) around the edges of Camp A, with denser forest behind them (on backdrop). There'd also be stumps, etc. from when the area was logged out the first time.

I just want to ask, does this seem correct to you? If it makes any difference, the BVLC is set in the Pacific Northwest, in Oregon.

Also, I've read that railroads with wood-burning locomotives (like the BVLC) don't usually have ash pits, as wood leaves less ash than coal. But even so, wouldn't an ash pit still be needed, as there would still be ash that needs to be cleaned out? (I really want to model one).

Cheers, Tbdanny