Cut and Fill?

[gmpullman]

Hi, N. P.

Glad you found it interesting.

Speaking of tunnels, It has always fascinated me how the engineers and surveyors of that era could dig a tunnel, sometimes working four or more faces at a time by digging access shafts, and when they finally broke through their calculations were proven to be within inches, or less, off the projected line. 9/16 of an inch in the case of the Hoosac Tunnel! On a slight grade, no less!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoosac_Tunnel

Even the PRR's six tubes under the North (Hudson) and East Rivers (which Amtrak is saying will have to be replaced soon!) were bored with amazing accuracy.

There are others, to be sure, but I am continually awed by what the railroad engineers could accomplish in that era before laser sightings, GPS and extreme mechanization.

Read about Benjamin H. Latrobe, who designed the B&O's Thomas Viaduct in 1833 at age 27! Still in use today! How did he have the forethought to make it wide enough and heavy enough to support today's double-track, high density main line?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Viaduct

And it was completed in only two years!

Here in Cleveland, the contractor building the $300 million Innerbelt Bridge set one of the massive piers a mere 2' 9" off!

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/07/pier_for_the_new_inner_belt_br.html

Do I hear all the great engineers and surveyors of the 1800s snickering? 

Have fun! Ed

[NP2626]

Ed, Thanks for the information.  Some interesting reading and certainly information worth knowing about to make the cuts and fills on your model railroad look more believable.   My guess is that the cut from the bore of a tunnel would be used in the same way.  As I have ridden my bicycle around on some of the railroad grades where the N.P. and G.N. had shared trackage, near Walker Minnesota, I am amazed at how much cut and fill was performed, way back when this roadbed was built! 

I am in the process of reading Prosser’s book Rails to the North Star and have gotten to the 1880, probably still too early for the fill I saw that triggered this thread and the roadbed near Walker.  This thread was instegated by my interest in how these cut and fill areas where built and what equipment was used?

[gmpullman]

Some interesting reading here...

Some interesting terms are in the introduction to this article. It mentions a Spoil Bank where un-usable or excess earth is dumped. If the cut does not furnish enough usable quality earth a special excavation called a Borrow Pit is made for the purpose.

Often times, sections of temporary panel track are laid to facilitate earth removal and moving of equipment. Take a look at construction photos of that little cut down in Panama and you'll see lots of temporary track used for loading, dumping and removing spoil or overburden. Sometimes the track is pinched or winched over to a new area with little regard to how pretty it looks as long as the cars can run over it without tipping.

Happy Modeling, Ed 

[wabash2800]

Any good nonfiction book should have an index. Sadly, it's often not included in railroad books. Even noting photo locations in the index is very helpful.

Victor Baird

Fort Wayne, Indiana

[NP2626]

Yes, Dave, there is a place not to far from me on the Northern Pacific where the process you mention was done.  However, I doubt that was the case here, as I don't believe there were ever tracks laid on the grade I am talking about. 

[dehusman]

The fills on the Lane Cutoff, from Omaha to Pacific Jct, west of Omaha (which parallels I-80) , some of which are 40-60 ft high, were formed by building trestles then coming back with dump cars of dirt to fill in the trestle.

[NP2626]

I have finally received my copy of Rails to the North Star book by Prosser.  I have scanned through and attempted to find where this might be discussed; but, have been unsuccessful so far.  Jim (jrberner) do you have an idea/chapter where this informatiobn can be found?

I will be reading the entire book when I'm done with the book I'm reading, now.

[NP2626]

SLC RR

Here is an example of a cut and fill technique using flat cars.  I assume they would back down near the work and employ the same type of manpower.

 

http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w364/logandsawman/cut%20and%20fill_zpst1syujbv.jpg

 

Your example would work if ties & rails had been laid, however, the example I saw on this old Great Northern fill, likely never had ties and rails.  

[tomikawaTT]

By the time the US got into the major cut business (the Gaillard(?) Cut of the Panama Canal) the flatcars were loaded with steam shovels (some mounted on rail cars) and unloaded by dragging a plow blade along the entire cut of cars.  Actually, the plow was in a fixed location and the loaded cars were pulled into it.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[SSW9389]

This was written after seeing a set of photos of the 1907 construction of the Stephenville North and South Texas Railroad. It's from page 1 of Cotton Belt Engineer:

"Usually Sunday was a day of rest and relaxation, but the SN&ST crews were working on this Sunday.  Sunday socials and community events centered on the church were a more commonplace thing in those days. But the coming of the railroad had the whole town in a whirl.  What Cecil Standefer saw that summer day in 1907 was the broad sweep of construction needed to create a new railroad. He saw Fresno scrapers moving a yard of fill, each drawn by two-mule teams. Each Fresno had an operator and each team of mules had a driver. Thus, two men were required to move that yard of earth for the fills for the embankment. Other mules worked the large field plow to loosen the fill material for the Fresnos. Other horse teams were used to pull the pile driver to the top of its reach. This lead was then released to let the pile driver fall upon the piles being driven for the new bridges that would carry the rails over the small streams and the bigger one that was the Leon River. The horses were then led around for another pull at the lead and the rail building work went on."

 

 

 

[SLC RR]

Here is an example of a cut and fill technique using flat cars.  I assume they would back down near the work and employ the same type of manpower.

 

http://i1072.photobucket.com/albums/w364/logandsawman/cut%20and%20fill_zpst1syujbv.jpg

[gregc]

NP2626

Can someone better describe how this work was accomplished?

Lackawanna cut-off and Construction of the Lackawanna Cut-off

 

 

NP2626

Here where I live in Minnesota, we are far more likely to ride our bikes on old railroad grades than to see trains running on them.

guess what they're used for today ...

[NP2626]

Jim,

I was able to find the book "Rails to the Northstar" at Amazon and have placed an order for this book.  Again, thanks for the reference!

[NP2626]

... 

[gmpullman]

Take a look at this "grade separation" project, very progressive for the time.

http://www.shorpy.com/node/18862?size=_original#caption

As one commenter noted, that concrete work was pretty crude. There's more interesting details here:

http://www.northerncatskillshistory.com/ArticlesHTML/1022%20D&NRR/1022_D&NRR.html

Note how the temporary timbers and rails were put in place to support the cars of fill. I can not explain the tipped rail on the right side of the photo other than perhaps a car got away while being unloaded.

In my neighborhood there was a wood interurban trestle that was slowly and eventually filled in with slag. Some years later the slag began to burn rendering the fill useless until the slag could be cooled and removed. Lesson learned for being cheap and not using a better grade of rock fill.

Ed

[jrbernier]

I suspect late 80's/early 90's. That roadbed east of Fertile is marked GN. Prosser's 'Rails to the Northstar' book would have the construction dates and original names of the companies.

Jim

[NP2626]

Jim,  The N.P./B.N. tracks that ran from Manitoba Junction to Winnipeg now only run up to Ulen.  I'm unsure when the tracks were torn-up through Fertile.  Do you know?  I'm thinking probably in the 90s as I seem to recall freight cars in Fertile, in that time frame.

Do you agree that the abandond road bed was the Great Northern's?  Thanks for this intersting information!

[jrbernier]

  USGS maps show that abandoned grade you are describling  - It went north through Maple Bay, and Dugdale/Tilden Jct.  Eventually winding up in Crookston, MN.  The GN picked up and replaced the line west of Tilden Jct with a re-alignment at one point.  The line south of there through the farm field was also picked up, and the GN ran on NP trackage rights through Fertile.  The NP and GN had several joint lines in the area where they used the best pieces of each others trackage.  The GN line to Winnipeg ran north out of Crookston and used CN trackage from Noyes to Winnipeg.  The GN Winnipeg Ltd ran fron Mpls/St Paul to St Cloud, Barnesville, Crookston and on to Noyes(the border).  My parents old neighbor was a RPO clerk on the overnight run, until the USPS got rid of the RPO contract.

  The NP line went through Grand Forks and up the west side of the Red River.  It crossed the border at Pembina, ND.  The NP ran RDC's for passenger service in later years.  The line north of the border was combined with the CN line at Emerson Jct. 

  BNSF still has trackage in Winnipeg and an engine & caboose marked BNML that switches the local indistries.  Neat Stuff!

Jim

[NP2626]

This was certainly not the first time I have noticed large fills, built to support track work.  What I found interesting about this particular fill was that it was never used.  G.N lost the race, end of story.  

Speaking of trestles that where later filled in with earth, not to far from me, there is almost a 6 mile long stretch of what was N.P. mainline that was just that, a very long trestle that was filled in with earth.

[7j43k]

carl425

Ever heard the old saying "wouldn't stand a chinaman's chance"? That was a reference to the Chinese laborers that worked on the railroads.

 

 

Interesting.  How do you know that?

 

 

 

Ed

[tomikawaTT]

A surprising amount of dirt gets lifted from lineside ditches and cuts so shallow they're barely visible.  The top of the fill is much narrower.

Even in the late 19th century there were dump drays and scrapers available - animal powered (more likely oxen than horses) but major labor savers nonetheless.  A major earthmoving project might also use steam power - crawler shovels and traction engines.

Major earthmoving efforts that encounter problems with politics, economics or an unfriendly Mother Nature have happened throughout history.  Look at the amount the French invested in the Maginot Line, only to have it outflanked and taken from the rear.  And then there was the dam in, IIRC, Montana that simply washed away after it was undermined by seepage...

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - including one prototype route that was abandoned 11 years later)

[carl425]

NP2626

It would have been back breaking work!

It was back breaking work.  Ever heard the old saying "wouldn't stand a chinaman's chance"? That was a reference to the Chinese laborers that worked on the railroads.

[cv_acr]

Sometimes old wooden trestles were later replaced with fill by dumping the material from side- or bottom-dump gondolas around the bridge.

Otherwise, a lot of work was done with horses and manual labour, before steam shovels were available.

[NP2626]

Yesterday, we visited my wife’s home farm from when she was growing up, her younger brother lives and farms there, now.  I had heard that there was a portion of railroad grade on the farm and had an opportunity to see the grade on this visit.  This is in Polk County in North Western Minnesota.  About 3-4 miles east of Fertile, MN where the Northern Pacific’s line north, from Manitoba Junction to Winnipeg, Manitoba, ran.

 

The railroad grade I walked yesterday runs parallel to the N.P.’s line and I believe is the work of the Great Northern which found itself in a race with the Northern Pacific to get to Winnipeg.  I’m thinking this would have been in the late 1800 or early 1900.  Great Northern lost the race and all the work put into building the road bed was for naught!

 

The section of road bed I walked was around a 1/4^th mile long and passed through a small river valley.  It went from fairly close to ground level to almost 20 feet tall where it ends at what would have been a trestle abutment.  My thoughts are that this road bed probably never had ties; or, rails on it and the trestle itself may never have been built.   

 

The engineering department would have sent crews out to where the survey showed “Cuts and Fills” would be needed to get the ball rolling.  Looking at the work done it becomes obvious how much effort would have been put in, to make this fill.  There is no big cut nearby, so I’m uncertain of where the fill came from.  I think all this work was accomplished with horse drawn scrapers and wagons.

 

Can someone better describe how this work was accomplished? 

Here where I live in Minnesota, we are far more likely to ride our bikes on old railroad grades than to see trains running on them.  I am amazed at the cut and fill performed by workers back before bull dozers and turnapulls made this work so easy to do.  It would have been back breaking work!