Hello
I want to model a HO Santa Fe train with Pullman green cars. I see that MTH has a Pullman green set that says Pullman on all of the cars sides. Is it possible, for that era, that ATSF used an entire train of Pullman green cars that said Pullman instead of Santa Fe? If not, what RR did? And what did MTH intended the customer to use them for?
Thanks
Joe C
Pullam owned and operated a large part of the sleeping car fleet until the late 40s or early 50s when the federal government made them turn over the operations to the railroads. Their cars that were assigned to specific railroads were painted the color of the railroad's other passenger equipment but often were lettered Pullman instead of the railroad's name. The porters on these cars were employed by Pullman, not the railroad.
It is very common to see cars (coaches, diners, head end and observation cars) marked for the railroad and the sleeping cars marked Pullman in old photographs.
I don't know the specifics of the Santa Fe as I model the IC, but I would imagine that even an "all Pullman" train would include a car or two (baggage, RPO) maked for the railroad.
In most cases, coaches, diners, and head end cars were owned by the railroad, and sleepers and parlor cars were owned by Pullman. Head end cars, and sometimes diners from connecting railroads (in pool service) were often seen. I think it was 1947 or 1948 when Pullman turned over the cars to the railroads. Prior to the change, the big Pullman name was on the letterboard. If the car was permanently assigned to a particular railroad, the railroad name was often located in small lettering on the letterboard, next to the vestibule. Cars permanently assigned to a particular train often had special paint schemes, sometimes with the train name centered on the letterboard in place of the Pullman name. Examples were the B&O's Capitol Limited and National Limited. Pullman green was the most common color, but Tuscan red was used on PRR-assigned cars, and two-tone gray was often used on others. After the change to RR ownership, the name placement was reversed, with the railroad name centered on the letterboard and the Pullman name in small letters near the vestibule. After that date, most sleepers tended to be repainted in the scheme of the owning railroad. I am sure you will find a number of exceptions to these general practices.
For your purposes, head end cars would mostly be Santa Fe, with perhaps a visiting PRR B60 baggage car (Walthers or Bethlehem Car Works) mixed in. Coaches would be Santa Fe (formerly available from Walthers). The diner would be Santa Fe (possibly the old AHM diner, which was based on a Santa Fe design). Sleepers would be Pullman. If you have an open platform observation, it could be a Pullman car such as Walthers, or it could be a Santa Fe car such as the old AHM car. Classic power would probably be one of ATSF's beautiful Northerns. A Santa Fe fan can give you more precise advice here.
Tom
I have four of the MTH cars and I find them to be an excellent value at about $75 each, "street price" however their selection and the grouping of available cars leaves a lot to be desired. I have the PRR baggage and 12-1 set and the Pullman pair of 12-1s. I'd like to get the observation car since it is named after an actual car I rode on, Mt. Baxter, but I do NOT want four more of the same 12-1 cars.
If you get the Pullman green set you do not have a baggage car available. The only choice for the Pullman set is a 12-1 or the 10 section/observation and two add on sets of, guess what, more 12-1s. Not much of a selection and as mentioned above by ACY and J White, you would have to round-out your train with cars from other manufacturers.
I provided some photos of the PRR cars here:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/245778.aspx
Have fun building your Santa Fe train, Ed
Pullman primarily built, owned and operated sleeping cars. However they also owned and operated diners, parlor cars, and even combines - New York Central's heavyweight Twentieth Century Limited used a Pullman baggage - smoking car at the head. In fact, usually the only car lettered New York Central in the train was the dining car, as the Century was advertised as an "All Pullman Train". Many railroads did something similar, so I would think a Santa Fe train with a Baggage car at the head and a Diner in the middle lettered 'Santa Fe', with the other cars being 'Pullman', should work.
Athearn's heavyweight cars are based on Santa Fe prototypes (or at least "inspired" by them). The Athearn RPO, Baggage, and Coach cars are full length (i.e. they're not "shorties" like the Diner, Sleeper and Observation cars, which are 80' long real cars shortened to 72' models; they're models of real cars that were 63'-70' long) so mixing them with your MTH Pullman cars should work well.
A little research might show that a Walthers, Atlas (old Branchline cars) or old AHM/Rivarossi diner might be pretty close to what ATSF used. I believe the AHM/Rivarossi Cafe-Observation car was based on a Santa Fe prototype.
Big problem in doing a "mix and match" is getting cars where the "Pullman Green" is the same color from one manufacturer to the other. That's one plus of painting and lettering cars yourself, you can make sure they all match up.
But then, green fades as it weathers over time so I suspect a real train of heavyweight cars weren't all exactly the same color anyway.
Most Pullman cars were sold to the various railroads that used them in 1948. The cars were then leased back to Pullman who operated the cars as they did before. When Pullman would withdraw from a lease, the car was usually replaced by a new lightweight one, and the old one scrapped by the railroads or converted to an MOW car if they needed one. In the case of parlor cars- Pullman withdrew from operation of them around 1956 but their use continued. For example- the PRR and the B&O continued to use their parlor cars, except that they now operated them. That's why you would see the word "Parlor" or "Parlor Car" in small letters near the car ends instead of the word "Pullman". Some of the heavyweight sleepers were converted to coaches by the PRR and the B&O over the years.
JW
I first saw the 4 car AHM heavyweight Pullman car set about 1959. They were on display in a glass cubicle in the waiting room of 30th St. Station in Philadelphia. The set was Pullman Green in the Santa Fe road name. I was told later on that those cars were actually based on the Santa Fe. The combine was supposedly used as a library car on one of the Santa Fe passenger trains to Chicago. Being a Pennsy fan I bought the set in PRR a couple years later even though three of the cars were innacurate for them. The 12/1 sleeper James Logan was the only accurate car. In fact the real James Logan was still in service until 1963. It was one of the last active 12/1 cars. That could be why AHM chose it for their PRR set. JW