JOHN BRUCE IIIRemember that express reefers carried dry freight in the off season, and this is what we are more likely seeing on the fast mails.
Absolutely..I would not be surprise if these PFE express cars was use for mail storage during the Holidays.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Larry, when you ask "I wonder what train we are seeing or was it a extra movement during height of the produce season?" you hit the nail on the head. Let's think for a moment. It's almost certainly an extra. Nobody is disputing that express reefers were used in part for early-season pruduce. It's almost certain that this train was hauling a LOT of one kind of early-season produce from California and was probably an extra move (by the mid-60s, all UP freights were extras anyhow). Whether the UP and PFE had an arrangement set up for such trains at the start of each year's early season would be an interesting question.
However, when I see actual evidence of this sort of train, it raises the question for me whether the conventional idea that express reefers carried produce in onesies-twosies on this or that fast mail is correct. Remember that express reefers carried dry freight in the off season, and this is what we are more likely seeing on the fast mails.
One of the gurus wrote THE BOOK on PFE, but no explanation on why there would be 50-100 car trains of express reefers, and thus no answer to your question. I would assume, though, that PFE handled the business end of setting up this train and arranging its use by shippers and consignees. But since the gurus already have all the answers, I'm not sure if we'll get any new ones to some very good questions.
Gurus?
JOHN BRUCE IIII like videos more and more, because they provide "disintermediation" between the real world (including the real world 50 years ago) and the words of the accepted gurus.
I agree but,I wonder what train we are seeing or was it a extra movement during height of the produce season?
Still we know a lot of PFE express reefers was handled in passenger express trains.Regular PFE and other reefer trains was handled between produce terminals.I suspect those express reefers was handled in the same manner unless there was passenger coaches on the end.
You Tube is a wealth of railroad information from modern to vintage videos if one takes the time to watch the videos.
At about 0:21 to 0:25 of this youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEcauBPIqHQ (which is a sample from the much longer Emery Gulash UP Odyssey DVD) you can see a UP turbine hauling a freight that clearly has a large number of passenger express reefers. An even better and clearer shot is at 0:32. They are under ice and hauling produce, since you can see water pouring from the drainpipes.
I like videos more and more, because they provide "disintermediation" between the real world (including the real world 50 years ago) and the words of the accepted gurus.
The 0:32 shot suggests at least 50 express reefers in the train. No contractor with a little truck is going to re-ice those.
BRAKIE JOHN BRUCE III In larger Eastern cities like Pittsburgh, there were dedicated produce terminals where broker/consignees picked up the shipments, and I suspect that the cars were switched to these terminals on arrival -- Now you're cutting into Union work rules and company/union policy's and job class definition.. A designated switch crew would handle the PFE express reefers after the terminal switch crew cut them out of the train.To get around paying a 5 man crew a produce terminal might be next to the REA building and come under the terminal switch crew job or the REA would unload these PFE cars..Other then that you would have a 5 man crew and switch engine shuttling express reefers containing various fruits and fish to the produce terminal.
JOHN BRUCE III In larger Eastern cities like Pittsburgh, there were dedicated produce terminals where broker/consignees picked up the shipments, and I suspect that the cars were switched to these terminals on arrival --
Now you're cutting into Union work rules and company/union policy's and job class definition..
A designated switch crew would handle the PFE express reefers after the terminal switch crew cut them out of the train.To get around paying a 5 man crew a produce terminal might be next to the REA building and come under the terminal switch crew job or the REA would unload these PFE cars..Other then that you would have a 5 man crew and switch engine shuttling express reefers containing various fruits and fish to the produce terminal.
Good information. I have a single PFE express reefer that has been traveling in my fast freight but I think I'm going to start having it moved by my fast mail train and left at the REA facility. My produce warehouse is right around the corner from the REA warehouse so I could choose to have it transfered there since I can pay that 5 man crew in scale dollars.
JOHN BRUCE IIIIn larger Eastern cities like Pittsburgh, there were dedicated produce terminals where broker/consignees picked up the shipments, and I suspect that the cars were switched to these terminals on arrival --
PFE/SP solved the re-ice issue with portable ice machines that dispensed with the need for traditional ice stations thus permitting re-icing during station stops, were this was not practical, contrators would perform this service from rubber tired equiptment.
All that was required to transform a standard PFE reefer to express service was retrofitting the existing trucks with high speed axles, application of steam-signal lines and olive paint, when no longer assigned this service these items were quickly removed. A side note pertaines to the scope of efficient PFE practices in which surplus Chrysler and Simonton-Gould manfactured sideframes were aquired at no cost, to their dismay and surprise several eastern carries refused to interchange reefers so equipped!
Dave
Since we're talking about PFE, it's worth referring to what you can see on SP and UP videos. It appears that both ran produce trains on a priority basis, and there are numerous Emery Gulash video shots in his UP Odyssey series from Green Frog showing turbines hauling produce trains that contained both REA and PFE express reefers. PFE had 40-foot reefers in their standard R-40 class that were painted Pullman green with steam lines, as well as 50-foot passenger express reefers. These actually appear to have run interchangeably with REA passenger express reefers in the same trains. The highest-priority use of the cars would, as mentioned above, be early in the season for fruits like strawberries, where the earliest crop would go to market ASAP. My understanding is that they would be loaded in a place like Oxnard, CA, a strawberry center, probably at team tracks or at a fruit packer, and put on the SP Coast Mail train to Los Angeles. Photographic evidence suggests they would be moved off the Coast Mail at Union Station and transferred to a mail or secondary passenger train there for forwarding east.
However, it seems to me that there's a complication if the cars need icing en route, as a passenger or mail train isn't going to detour to an ice deck. This may be why you see so many scenes of express reefers in priority freights in the UP videos.
In larger Eastern cities like Pittsburgh, there were dedicated produce terminals where broker/consignees picked up the shipments, and I suspect that the cars were switched to these terminals on arrival -- although these terminals would not have been easily accessible from places like Penn Station New York, so you migjht see such cars being routed to car floats via Jersey City. This might also explain the presence of express reefers in freight trains with mainly freight reefers.
In the non-priority season, cars like the green PFE 40-foot reefers would stay in less critical produce service, or possibly in dry service. 50-foot passenger express reefers often had collapsible ice bunkers to allow use in dry service on the off season.
jecorbettSince the mail and express trains would typically deliver to USPS and REA facilities, would these high priority perishables such as flowers end up being handled by REA? So as with the regular PFE reefers, these express reefers could be borrowed as boxcars when being returned to their point of origin rather than being returned empty.
Question 1. Yes,the REA would unload the PFE express reefers.
Question 2.No these cars was assigned to express duty and more then likely had steam and signal lines the reason is simple some mail/ express trains carried passengers.The empty PFE express cars could carry mail bags or was returned empty.
Railroads back then wasn't all that swift to load foreign road freight cars over their own..Even today you see empty foreign road freight cars in trains.
So if I am understanding this correctly, these reefers were used for perishables that were even more time sensitive than the regular produce shipments which typically ran on fast freights. Putting them on a mail train would get them to the desired destination even faster than on a fast freight?
Since the mail and express trains would typically deliver to USPS and REA facilities, would these high priority perishables such as flowers end up being handled by REA?
So as with the regular PFE reefers, these express reefers could be borrowed as boxcars when being returned to their point of origin rather than being returned empty.
PFE express reefers were used for the transport of time and damage sensitive perishables, flowers, strawberries and grapes in particular. They were also leased to the USPS and used for postal storage during the holidays. PFE had no affliation with the REA, express loads were consigned by a shipper to a particular destination and customer.
Without knowing where it came from, or where it's going, would guess anything from aforementioned flowers, to food, to express packages from/to the REA or through mail. It may have arrived loaded, and instead of returning it empty, they "borrowed" it for a shipment back that direction.... So, basically anything clean enough that they could use it for, or, it's standard temperature controlled loads.... Or, maybe not loaded at all, they are returning/transporting it back, but indeed empty.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
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1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
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It may or may not apply to PFE express reefers, but the CNR used express reefers for flower shipments.
Wayne
The current issue of RMC did a feature on UP's mail trains and one of the types of cars that they showed appearing in the consist was a PFE Express Reefer painted in Pullman green. Typically I have seen the orange PFE reefers in long blocks or even unit trains. I am curious as to what kind of commodity would be shipped on a mail train in a single express reefer. Also would this typically be delivered to an REA facility or would it end up at a produce distribution warehouse?