ACY I can buy that to a certain extent. In most cases, the details on the railroad operation are secondary to the film's plot and the need to tell a story. But your model railroad is supposed to please only you, and that's as it should be. The filmmaker's job is to create a plausible visual and auditory environment in which to tell the story for a much broader audience. If a significant number of his audience members find something that interferes with that visual and auditory environment, then the effort fails to a certain degree. Sometimes the filmmaker just has to come as close as he can. Walt Disney made compromises when he produced The Great Locomotive Chase, but the overall effect was quite plausible. Some of these things amount to poor research by the producers. I'm not sure whose job this is supposed to be. On some films, I suspect it is nobody's job, and that's a shame. The cost of location shooting, the owners of railroad track and equipment, etc. can make a big difference, especially in regard to low budget films. Sometimes CGI can work; other times it might be more than the producers can afford. The Lone Ranger film had an astronomical budget, so it should have been perfect. Actually, it's something like our models. I've seen a number of models that deviated from the prototype for absolutely no apparent reason, when it's just as easy and inexpensive to make it right as to make it wrong. A very good example would be Bachmann's HO Sharks, released a few years ago. There was no reason to put a long, unprototypical porch on the back of those units, but they did it anyway. As a result, I spent a lot of time and trouble lopping off those extensions and creating new mountings for the couplers on 6 A units and both ends of a B. They operate fine with the engines coupled at a prototypical distance. Couldn't Bachmann's engineers have figured this out? Maybe Bachmann should produce films.
I can buy that to a certain extent. In most cases, the details on the railroad operation are secondary to the film's plot and the need to tell a story. But your model railroad is supposed to please only you, and that's as it should be. The filmmaker's job is to create a plausible visual and auditory environment in which to tell the story for a much broader audience. If a significant number of his audience members find something that interferes with that visual and auditory environment, then the effort fails to a certain degree.
Sometimes the filmmaker just has to come as close as he can. Walt Disney made compromises when he produced The Great Locomotive Chase, but the overall effect was quite plausible. Some of these things amount to poor research by the producers. I'm not sure whose job this is supposed to be. On some films, I suspect it is nobody's job, and that's a shame. The cost of location shooting, the owners of railroad track and equipment, etc. can make a big difference, especially in regard to low budget films. Sometimes CGI can work; other times it might be more than the producers can afford. The Lone Ranger film had an astronomical budget, so it should have been perfect.
Actually, it's something like our models. I've seen a number of models that deviated from the prototype for absolutely no apparent reason, when it's just as easy and inexpensive to make it right as to make it wrong. A very good example would be Bachmann's HO Sharks, released a few years ago. There was no reason to put a long, unprototypical porch on the back of those units, but they did it anyway. As a result, I spent a lot of time and trouble lopping off those extensions and creating new mountings for the couplers on 6 A units and both ends of a B. They operate fine with the engines coupled at a prototypical distance. Couldn't Bachmann's engineers have figured this out?
Maybe Bachmann should produce films.
I tend to be more forgiving of artistic license in movies that are fictional to begin with. Those that are telling the story of an actual historical event should strive for accuracy as much as possible IMHO. The movie Mississippi Burning which was the subject in the OP falls somewhere in between. While it is obviously based on the murders of the three civil rights workers by the KKK in 1964, the names of the principles were fictionalized. The names of the victims were not even mentioned, not even in the credits.
riogrande5761 I watched the recent Lone Ranger movie (starting Johney Depp as Tonto) and anyone who has watched know there are a lot of railroad scenes - they spent a big budget on the train parts. They used very funky odd looking couplers on the train cars - they looked like a tongue on one side and a two sided clamp on the other - thus if you turned a car around, it would not be able to couple to the next car. What the heck!?! Only in Hollywood!~ I don't know but as a rail fan since a wee age, I found it was annoying among a number of features of the film which forced me to ignore it in order to find it entertaining. I guess thats what happens when Hollywood build their own trains, rather than using real trains. But this is how they role, they do their own thing and only the people who know about certain specialties notice the flaws - and they rely on this principle and generally get away with it.
I watched the recent Lone Ranger movie (starting Johney Depp as Tonto) and anyone who has watched know there are a lot of railroad scenes - they spent a big budget on the train parts. They used very funky odd looking couplers on the train cars - they looked like a tongue on one side and a two sided clamp on the other - thus if you turned a car around, it would not be able to couple to the next car. What the heck!?! Only in Hollywood!~
I don't know but as a rail fan since a wee age, I found it was annoying among a number of features of the film which forced me to ignore it in order to find it entertaining. I guess thats what happens when Hollywood build their own trains, rather than using real trains. But this is how they role, they do their own thing and only the people who know about certain specialties notice the flaws - and they rely on this principle and generally get away with it.
My OP might have made it sound like I was being critical of the movie makers and maybe I was a little. I was more curious if there was still some steam locos around in 1964 Mississippi where the movie was set. But then I got to thinking about my own freelanced railroad and some of the liberties I have taken. For example, my layout is set in 1956 but I have fudged a little and have a couple NYC Jade Green boxcars which I don't think appeared until 1960. My layout also predates the NYC cigar band logo but I have a set of F7s with the cigar band on the roster. Since there aren't a lot of quality 1950s automobiles available, I've got a few CMW 1959 Fords here and there. There's probably some other equipment on the layout that the nitpickers would point out don't belong in my era. My justification is that since I am a freelancer, I can bend the rules and include a few things that aren't technically correct. You could say that the movie producers are doing the same sort of freelancing.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Even Alfred Hitchcock, who generally used trains as "supporting characters" in several of his suspense films, got a little careless with authenticity. In the opening scene of his masterful "Strangers On A Train", the train pulling into Washington D.C. Union Station is none other than Espee's "Coast Daylight" which ran between San Francisco and Los Angeles. And the end shot of "North By Northwest", one of his most popular films--which correctly uses the 20th Century Limited for a long sequence at the beginning of the film--shows a set of Espee F units pulling the "San Joaquin Daylight" into a tunnel presumably on the Hudson river.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Did Hollywood get it wrong? More than likely yes. HWood never really researches aspects of railroading when using them. For example, how many SP GS type locomotives were there in Germany during WWII?
The real answer is ZERO, but according to Hogan's Heroes, there were plenty. And theres no mistaking an SP GS type as beautiful as those locos were!
PM Railfan
PS: Randy - havent you heard (pun intended), there is no sound in space.
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Slightly more subtle one - the 1960 Paul Newman/Joanne Woodward movie "From the Terrace" from the John O'Hara novel. They are supposed to be arriving at Reading Terminal in Philadelphia, but the Reading T1 #2124 used to pull the train could not negotiate the tight turns to get into the terminal, so they filmed it at the CNJ station in Jersey City instead. Considering the rathr brief appearance, there are actually a bunch of publicity photos taken of Newman and Woodward posed on and around the engine. Filimg too place just after the Reading started up their famous Rambles using the surviving serviceable T1's, so I'm sure they wanted to get as much publicity out of this as they could, and draping an already beautiful loco with two of the most attractive Hollywood stars of the time certainly couldn't hurt.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
jmbjmb Oh and if you think RR sound effects are bad, when you're with a bunch of aerospace engineers, any space movie better get it right. Gravity for example was just too laughable to enjoy. jim
Oh and if you think RR sound effects are bad, when you're with a bunch of aerospace engineers, any space movie better get it right. Gravity for example was just too laughable to enjoy.
jim
Must - have - bigger - LOUDER - explosions
......IN SPACE!
cacole In the movie, "White Christmas" with Bing Crosby, Rosemary Clooney, Vera Ellen, and Danny Kaye, they board a Santa Fe passenger train in Florida and get off a Southern Pacific passenger train in Vermont.
In the movie, "White Christmas" with Bing Crosby, Rosemary Clooney, Vera Ellen, and Danny Kaye, they board a Santa Fe passenger train in Florida and get off a Southern Pacific passenger train in Vermont.
That one is so major I don't know how they let it slide. Even my teenage daughter, who is not a RR buff, but a big fan of that movie noticed that mess up.
It seems that, at least for those I work with, many of us have these problems with movies, not just trains. To really get into a movie you need the "willing suspension of disbelief." So when something intruds that doesn't belong, whether it's contrails in an old western, or a wrong car, or sound that doesn't "fit" that suspension is broken and we step out of the film and back into our lives. Hard to get it back again.
Hollywood secret: All sound is re-recorded. If you heard it, a sound editor put it there specifically for the effect. Film makers might be experts in making movies but not in other subjects. In some cases they will hire technical advisors to get it right but since it wasn't a movie about a train why bother since the average person won't catch the mistake.
rrinker My personal favorite train mess up is in Ray, the movie about Ray Charles. There is a shot of them driving to a show, in the 50's, and as the drive under a railroad bridge, a double-stack train passes overhead! Guess they figured no one would notice and didn;t bother to reshoot the scene. I was watching it with a retired railroader and I caught it instantly, he didn't notice until I pointed it out. I guess the movie makers were right. --Randy
My personal favorite train mess up is in Ray, the movie about Ray Charles. There is a shot of them driving to a show, in the 50's, and as the drive under a railroad bridge, a double-stack train passes overhead! Guess they figured no one would notice and didn;t bother to reshoot the scene. I was watching it with a retired railroader and I caught it instantly, he didn't notice until I pointed it out. I guess the movie makers were right.
My guess is the movie makers didn't know it was wrong and also figured most of their audience wouldn't either. Sometimes though, they figure wrong. Like in Field of Dreams when they had Shoeless Joe Jackson batting right handed. Every baseball afficianado noticed that one right away. Billy Crystal even made light of it at the Oscars.
rrinker as the drive under a railroad bridge, a double-stack train passes overhead!
Same deal in Oliver Stone's JFK when they show the railroad yard, (56 min) BN double stacks pass by in TTX well cars... November 1963?? Don't think so!
There could be a whole thread about Hollywood goofs!
Ed
cacole Having the wrong sound effects is not as bad as having the wrong railroad in the wrong part of the country. In the movie, "White Christmas" with Bing Crosby, Rosemary Clooney, Vera Ellen, and Danny Kaye, they board a Santa Fe passenger train in Florida and get off a Southern Pacific passenger train in Vermont.
Having the wrong sound effects is not as bad as having the wrong railroad in the wrong part of the country.
The movie The Natural had the team riding the Santa Fe Chief. The problem with that is the movie was set in the 1930s and Chicago and St. Louis were the westernmost cities with major league teams back then, each having an American and National League team.
Then there was The Sting. I gave them points for having Doyle Lonnegan making his bi-weekly trip from New York to Chicago on the 20th Century Limited which they simply called the Century Limited. The storyboard showed a drawing of the Dreyfus Hudson but that didn't start leading the 20th Century Limited until 1938 and the movie was set in 1934.
wjstix I know there were numerous shortlines and logging railroads in the South that used steam into the mid-1960's. Many railfans flocked there to ride and photograph the trains. If you go thru old issues of Trains from that time, you'll see quite a few pics of small Southern steam engines still working on trains. The coverage these lines got was way out of proportion with their size and importance otherwise; by 1964 only around 1-2% of US engines were steam. BTW it wasn't exclusively the South. The Duluth & NorthEastern in NE Minnesota used steam until late 1964.
I know there were numerous shortlines and logging railroads in the South that used steam into the mid-1960's. Many railfans flocked there to ride and photograph the trains. If you go thru old issues of Trains from that time, you'll see quite a few pics of small Southern steam engines still working on trains. The coverage these lines got was way out of proportion with their size and importance otherwise; by 1964 only around 1-2% of US engines were steam.
BTW it wasn't exclusively the South. The Duluth & NorthEastern in NE Minnesota used steam until late 1964.
If that's the case, maybe the director did do some research and discovered there was still steam operating in he region in that era. That's why I started this thread to satisfy my curiosity.
Filmmaking = freelancing. Or maybe trackage rights?
DSO17 jecorbett Last night I was watching Mississippi Burning, the story of the 3 slain civil rights workers in 1964. It is set in the northwest corner of Mississippi. Twice during the movie, there was the unmistakable sound of a steam locomotive whistle in the background. I know that no major carriers were still operating steam in 1964. Were any shortlines still operating steam locos in that area back then or is this just another case of a director not knowing/caring about railroad accuracy. You don't have to have a steam engine to have a whistle. Some diesels were equipped with Hancock Air Whistles. Depending on the type and air pressure used, some of them could sound just like a steam whistle.
jecorbett Last night I was watching Mississippi Burning, the story of the 3 slain civil rights workers in 1964. It is set in the northwest corner of Mississippi. Twice during the movie, there was the unmistakable sound of a steam locomotive whistle in the background. I know that no major carriers were still operating steam in 1964. Were any shortlines still operating steam locos in that area back then or is this just another case of a director not knowing/caring about railroad accuracy.
You don't have to have a steam engine to have a whistle. Some diesels were equipped with Hancock Air Whistles. Depending on the type and air pressure used, some of them could sound just like a steam whistle.
I suppose that is possible but I'll bet dollars to donuts the director just asked the sound engineer for a canned sound of a locomotive in the background and didn't give much thought to the kind locomotive. Or maybe since it was a period piece he though a steam locomotive sound would create that feel not realizing steam was all but gone from American railroads by 1964.
jecorbettLast night I was watching Mississippi Burning, the story of the 3 slain civil rights workers in 1964. It is set in the northwest corner of Mississippi. Twice during the movie, there was the unmistakable sound of a steam locomotive whistle in the background. I know that no major carriers were still operating steam in 1964. Were any shortlines still operating steam locos in that area back then or is this just another case of a director not knowing/caring about railroad accuracy.
>>Hence the sound of squeeling tires on a dirt road or the cry of a majestic eagle- -eagles don't screech, their call is a warble or something similar to a seagull. That familiar eagle sound is actually the cry of a falcon if I remember correctly.>>
Eagles DO screech, and it's loud. There was a road kill deer in front of my house last summer and there was a local bald eagle there competing with the crows and wolves over the carcas. It was unbelievable how loud it was for about a week and how little of that deer was left. Just some hair.
My guess is the director made a conscious decision to have that background sound in those two scenes and that it was dubbed in after filming. He probably went back to the studios and asked the sound engineer to dub in some background railroad sounds and the sound engineer picked out a steam loco.
So industrial or shortline steam is not impossible for the timeframe in question, but I doubt if that matters much to the film-makers.
In an odd sense however, by doing so aren't they making the racism of that era seem longer ago and more distant than it really is?
Dave Nelson
jjdamnit Hello All, Hence the sound of squeeling tires on a dirt road or the cry of a majestic eagle- -eagles don't screech, their call is a warble or something similar to a seagull. That familiar eagle sound is actually the cry of a falcon if I remember correctly. But hey why let the truth get in the way of a good story. Hope this helps.
Hello All,
Hence the sound of squeeling tires on a dirt road or the cry of a majestic eagle- -eagles don't screech, their call is a warble or something similar to a seagull. That familiar eagle sound is actually the cry of a falcon if I remember correctly.
But hey why let the truth get in the way of a good story.
Hope this helps.
Out here I have never heard a seagull warble. They have more of a call similar to that of geese. Any of the eagles I have seen here have never made screeching sounds if any at all. Though watching nature movies about the pacific north west up through BC and Alaska, the sound of eagles tends to be a screech. I just watched a video on youtube and all of the eagle sounds are like a screech. Different pitches.
Ken G Price My N-Scale Layout
Digitrax Super Empire Builder Radio System. South Valley Texas Railroad. SVTRR
N-Scale out west. 1996-1998 or so! UP, SP, Missouri Pacific, C&NW.
jecorbettTwice during the movie, there was the unmistakable sound of a steam locomotive whistle in the background. I know that no major carriers were still operating steam in 1964. Were any shortlines still operating steam locos in that area back then or is this just another case of a director not knowing/caring about railroad accuracy.
The Reader Railroad operated steam in daily service in Arkansas until 1971 (with mixed trains, no less). It was widely regarded as the last common carrier to operate steam in regular service.
So it's remotely possible that steam was in operation somewhere in Mississippi in 1964, but pretty unlikely -- and probably just something that the movie company got wrong.
[There were some steam-powered sugar plantation railroads in Mississippi, but I don't know if any were operating steam that late.]
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
tomikawaTT In reference to Mississippi Burning, the railroad effects are hardly the only things that the writers/producer/director got wrong. A friend of mine was in Mississippi as a civil rights volunteer at the time. Her comments, published as an afterward to her memoir, Freedom Summer (the 1990 University of Virginia reprint,) are scathing! Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
In reference to Mississippi Burning, the railroad effects are hardly the only things that the writers/producer/director got wrong. A friend of mine was in Mississippi as a civil rights volunteer at the time. Her comments, published as an afterward to her memoir, Freedom Summer (the 1990 University of Virginia reprint,) are scathing!
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
The movie was obviously base on the murders of Mickey Schwerner, James, Chaney, and Andrew Goodman but the names of all the principles were changed so one would expect quite a bit of artistic license and that there would be many fictionalized scenes. In fact the victims are listed in the credits only as Goatee(Schwerner), Passenger(Goodman), and Black Passenger(Cheney). I didn't mean to sound that critical of the insertion of a steam locomotive in 1964 Mississippi. It's just that it jumped out at me and I started this thread more out of my own curiosity. I doubt the director even knew it was incorrect and probably wouldn't have cared. I bet few in the audience would have noticed it. I didn't the first time I saw the movie.
In addition to Mississippi Burning, there have been two made for TV movies about the event. Attack on Terror: The FBI vs. the Ku Klux Klan played in 1975 with Peter Strauss playing the Schwerner based character. Murder in Mississippi came out in 1990 and was the only one of the three in which the actual names of the victims were used. Schwerner was played by Tom Hulce (Pinto from Animal House) and Blair Underwood played Cheney.
In regards to Foley; AKA sound effects, directors will say they are telling a story not making a documentary. If it adds to the story who cares if it represents reality.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"