So, in the song about Casey Jones, was a 6-8 Wheeler a real type of locomotive; or, was this a figment of the song writer’s imagination?
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
Good Question! This has been discussed for some time. One theory is that it means 68" drive wheels. Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I've heard that story too, Jim. I've often thought that the railroaders of the day were very familiar with 4-4-0's, which were called "Americans" or "Eight-wheelers". Could it be that these guys saw a 4-6-0 for the first time and thought of it as an enlarged eight-wheeler with an extra pair of drivers? Thus, a "6 - eight wheeler"? I agree that nobody seems to know for sure.
Curiously, the drawings of 382, published in the MR Cyclopedia (Kalmbach, 1960), shows 69" drivers. Of course, that doesn't mean 68" drivers were never applied to the engine.
We would probably need the help of Marty McFly and Doc to find out for sure. "Dad, can I borrow the DeLorean?"
Tom
ACYCuriously, the drawings of 382, published in the MR Cyclopedia (Kalmbach, 1960), shows 69" drivers. Of course, that doesn't mean 68" drivers were never applied to the engine.
With some turning down to deal with wear issues, a 69" driver might shrink to 68". I dunno. One theory anyway.
On the other hand, song writers were never known to be sticklers for prototype accuracy. The words may have just flowed better with the music and sounded "right" enough to fit. Or it could be that Casey ran Moguls and Consolidations as a freight engineer before ascending to the passenger crew board and the abbreviated lyrics reference that.
This reminds me of the Grateful Dead's "Jack Straw" were there'a reference to catching the "Great Northern out of Cheyenne..." I could nver figure that one out -- the GN doesn't go to Cheyenne -- when I came across a different way of looking at the phrase. The travelers were actually catching a "Great Northern" boxcar as their ride out of Cheyenne.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
I once heard a recording of a British skiffle band doing a rendition of the Orange Blossom Special. To introduce the song, the vocalist said the O. B. Spec. ran between Arkansas and Detroit. I could be misremembering this, but does it really matter? Whatever end points he mentioned were equally ludicrous.
I had thought maybe a “6-8 Wheeler” was a known description of a locomotive, apparently not. So, like ACY stated, the topic of this thread really may be ludicrous!
No, the topic's not ludicrous. But the answer may be elusive.
I've seen reference to a 6-8 wheeler once in a book years ago. It might have been a caption to a photograph. It seems like it was a European designation, maybe a class designation, but it was being used for a 4-6-0. What we would call the ten wheeler. It stuck out to me because of the song. It was, and is, the only time I've seen that reference outside of the song.
I don't remember what book I saw it in. It's probably one I have, but a quick glance at those that have foriegn sections hasn't produced the reference. Trying to search the internet hasn't worked either.
I'm not sure though why a foriegn term would get used in an American song. Perhaps has the song evolved and was "polished" by professional song writers, someone had heard the term and used it. Perhaps it was used (commonly or regionally) at the time and over the years fell out of favor.
Jeff
I have always been more curious about the "you got another pappa on the Salt Lake Line" phrase in the song (which Mrs Casey Jones tells her children to make them stop crying about Casey's death). That line is not in all versions of the song, but curiously as a boy I had a children's record of train songs (Casey Jones, Jawn Henry, Rock Island Line, I've Been Working on the Railroad, etc) and on that record they included the "you got another pappa" line. I couldn't make any sense out of it at the time (age 7 or so). I am sure if I asked my Dad he probably made something up.
One theory I read was that while the class of engines the 382 belonged to had 69" drivers for whatever reason the 382 itself had 68" drivers, and it stands to reason that in the roundhouse the guys in charge of putting on new tires onto those drivers would think of a unique engine in such terms. It makes a certain amount of sense but is pure speculation.
Dave Nelson
I don't remember where I heard this, so I can't document it: Somewhere I read that a song publishing outfit decided to "improve" on Wallace Saunders' original lyric and added "you've got another poppa on the Salt Lake Line". I think the publisher thought Casey was a fictional character, and therefore fair game. I heard that Casey's widow sued the publisher and won; but the new lyric was already in wide circulation, so it persists. It's something like saying something on Facebook: Once you've said it, you can't put the Genie back in the bottle.
Can anybody support or refute any of this?
Saunders made up the song and played it for other railroaders and friends, who learned it and passed it along, until finally a couple of vaudeville guys named Seibert and Newton heard it, reworked it, and published it. Since they weren't railroaders, it's hard to say what changes they made, or what changes had happened over the years before they heard it. I do recall someone saying that in Canada or the U.K. at the time a "6-8 wheeler" would be an engine with six drivers and an eight wheel tender, but I don't know if that's correct?
FWIW back then engineers usually had assigned engines, and Casey's was a 2-8-0 that had been displayed by IC at the 1893 Columbian Exposition in Chicago, where Casey worked on commuter trains bringing people to and from the fair. Somehow he managed to get IC to assign the engine to him after the fair ended.
On the night he died, Casey had finished his run and was called on to run another train pulled by the 4-6-0 he died in, when that engine's engineer took ill. This was before the "hog law" limiting the time you could work; when the wreck happened, Casey had been on duty working for something like 18-20 hours straight.
Looks like a very nice version of Consolidation 638 could be made using the Rivarossi/AHM Casey Jones boiler & cab on a 2-8-0 mechanism. Drivers look to be about 57".
O.K. got the Ballad of Casey Jones looked at, now lets look at the Greatful Dead's Casy Jones song. "Driven that Train, high on coc___, Casey Jones, you better watch yor speed".
If she had been alive when that one came out, I have no doubt she'd have sued them too. But first, she'd have bashed Jerry Garcia over the head with his own guitar.
T.
Of all the changes made through history considering lyrics and/or story......
here is its 1910 incarnation, just 10 years after Casey's passing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5P7TzXXfkE
PM Railfan
IC 382 was not John Luthur Jones' regular locomotive. It just happened to be on the head end when Jones relieved a sick colleague. He usually ran IC 638, a 2-8-0 purchased at his request after he saw it at the Columbian Exhibition of 1893.
ACY I don't remember where I heard this, so I can't document it: Somewhere I read that a song publishing outfit decided to "improve" on Wallace Saunders' original lyric and added "you've got another poppa on the Salt Lake Line". I think the publisher thought Casey was a fictional character, and therefore fair game. I heard that Casey's widow sued the publisher and won; but the new lyric was already in wide circulation, so it persists. It's something like saying something on Facebook: Once you've said it, you can't put the Genie back in the bottle. Can anybody support or refute any of this? Tom
Not a song publisher, but a striker involved in a Southern Pacific shopworker's labor dispute. When the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers refused to support them, that individual wrote, Casey Jones, the Union Scab, containing that, "You've got another poppa," line.
The song also made unfavorable comparisons of the SP versus a number of competitors, including the, "Santa Fee." Mrs. Jones wasn't the only one who went after that song hammer and tongs.
As for the Grateful Dead, if Mrs Jones had still been around they would have been a lot more dead than grateful...
Chuck (Former Tennessee resident modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
All I know is
♫ Switchman is sleeping. Train number two is on the wrong track and heading for you!♫
PM Railfan Of all the changes made through history considering lyrics and/or story...... here is its 1910 incarnation, just 10 years after Casey's passing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5P7TzXXfkE PM Railfan
Although nothing more than coincidence, it is interesting that the 2-8-0 pictured has the ID number "638"...now if we can just find some line in the song that we could connect to the number 3 we'll be able to claim the engine in the song was really his original mount!!!
mersenne6 Although nothing more than coincidence, it is interesting that the 2-8-0 pictured has the ID number "638"...now if we can just find some line in the song that we could connect to the number 3 we'll be able to claim the engine in the song was really his original mount!!!
Could easily be that Saunders was so used to Jones running 638 that he really used that number in his ballad. And later the 3 was lost.
Enjoy
Paul
I'm curious whether Casey used 2-8-0 638 on fast passenger trains. It seems unlikely, but I don't suppose we'll ever know.
ACY, I don't think Mr. Jones had a choice as to what locomotive he used to pull what ever train he was assigned to. #382 was the loco assigned to the passenger train that the accident occured with, sort of showing it was above his pay grade to make such choices.
Engines were still assigned to specific engine crews back then. Engine 382 was Jones' assigned engine at that time. From the accounts I've read (Treasury of Railroad Folklore, for one) says he agreed to "double out" (because the regular engine crew wasn't available due to illness) if they were able to take their regular engine. That is what was done. The 382 was turned and serviced in time to go on the train.
Casey Jones had to give up the 638 when he transferred from freight service to passenger service in January 1900.
jeffhergert Engines were still assigned to specific engine crews back then. Engine 382 was Jones' assigned engine at that time. From the accounts I've read (Treasury of Railroad Folklore, for one) says he agreed to "double out" (because the regular engine crew wasn't available due to illness) if they were able to take their regular engine. That is what was done. The 382 was turned and serviced in time to go on the train. Casey Jones had to give up the 638 when he transferred from freight service to passenger service in January 1900. Jeff
From what I've read, Jones still ran freight and #638 was his regular engine. He was also running passenger at the time and when the opportunity to take the passenger train came up, after he had already put in his day on freight, he took the work. I don't think we know if he had ever run #382 before.
I think the truth be told, everything known about the wreak, might be subject to interpretation. Casey's story is a great story! However, we may not have known anything about him had it not been for the fact a song about him was written, 6-8 wheeler and all!
Think what you want.
The article in "A Treasury of Railroad Folklore" about Casey Jones was taken from the book, "Main Line of Mid-America, The Story of the Illinois Central."
When he ran freight, his runs were out of Jackson, TN to Water Valley, MS. In January of 1900 he transferred into passenger service. To do this, he had to move to Memphis, TN and his run was from their to Canton, MS. He also had to leave the 638 behind.
All accounts I've seen in print have engine 382 has his engine at the time of the collision. He had a special, distinctive whistle made for his assigned engine. It seems the whistle still exists, but may be in private hands. I've seen reference to that and that it's in the musuem in Jackson, TN.
While looking through some stuff on the internet, I did find someone who said engine 384 was his regular engine on passenger trains. That 382 was used because 384 couldn't be serviced in time. While I could see that being the case, all other accounts, including ones from his fireman Simm Webb (albeit years later) say they turned his regular engine in time to use it.
In any case, he hadn't been on 638 in a few months on April 30, 1900.
Great! You seem to know more about this story than the other people I have read who have told Casey's story. I really don't particularly care about the details of what engines he was assigned to; or, when that took place, nor have I attempted to aspouse I know much about this! I was only interested in whether the description "6-8 wheeler" was a proper description of #382 which was a 10 Wheeler!
Just read Wikapedia's infromation on Casey Jones. They point out that there is some controversy where there is three accounts of how it was that Casey ended up taking the train that was involved in the wreck.
My pet theory - since "8 wheeler" was common for a 4-4-0, also known as an American Standard (the Standard part tends to get dropped, but int he full Whyte classification list it's there)..
that makes a 6-8 wheeler a standard loco with 6 drivers.
A slight alternate, brought up because of reading a discussion on Hank Snow's classic song "Movin On" (best done by Emmylou, but I digress) about the line "big 8 wheeler". It would seem that at the time, not too many railroads would have still been using 4-4-0's on fast passenger trains. Some speculated that it meant 8 drive wheels, like a 4-8-4 (Dixie to the Southerners). My idea here is more that "8 wheeler" became more of a generic slang term for a crack passenger engine. Thus once again, 6-8 wheeler meaning a 6 drivered fast passenger engine.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Some odds and ends....
The best source for the 'real story' is the April 2000 Trains magazine, which did a cover story on the 100th anniversary of the wreck. It explained exactly what happened, and debunked a lot of myths regarding the events. According to that, the 2-8-0 Casey is in the cab of in my earlier post was his assigned engine, but he used the 4-6-0 to haul the passenger train that crashed.
Hank Snow wasn't a railroader. He had been a cabin boy at sea, and then became "The Singing Ranger" in Canada in the 1930's. When he wrote "I'm Movin' On" (and recorded the definitive version) in 1950, the standard passenger steam engine on top of the line trains for 15-20 years were 4-8-4 or 4-8-2s. I suspect his reference to an "eight wheeler" was referring to eight driving wheels. Perhaps he had heard the term 'eight wheeler' and assumed it meant driving wheels. There are plenty of songs about railroading and industry written by people who only had limited information on what they were writing about - like "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" describing the ore boat loading in Superior, Wisconsin with taconite from Minnesota's Mesabi range as "a load of iron ore from a mill in Wisconsin(??)"
It's important to understand that Wallace Saunders neither recorded nor published a version of the song Casey Jones. In fact, I seem to recall he was illiterate?? He made up the song, based partly on an existing railroad-related song, and it became a 'folk song' that people heard and added to until finally it was published and recorded by other people - who knew little if anything about railroading.
I never had a problem with the Edmond Fitzgerald song as I thought the vessel had loaded at Superior Wisconsin. I'm not going to dig out my book on the E.Fitz and prove that point, as we're moving in yet another unrelated direction to the thrust of this thread.
I really think that if "6-8 Wheeler" is not something plainly known; or, was plainly known, everything we say about it is just pure conjecture!