I was sloppy in conflating "yard tracks" and "yard limits" in my response, for which I apologize. Indeed, main tracks are not part of "yard tracks", and are governed by standard rule 93, which pertains to use of main tracks within yard limits. But rule 93 is ambiguous, so its interpretation is up to the local Rules Examiner. In my case (brakeman, switchman and yard conductor on the Milwaukee Terminal Division of the Milwaukee Road during the 1970s), the Rules Examiner said that scheduled and extra trains were still governed by all rules pertaining to trains, including superiority, etc., within yard limits, but that movements on main tracks within yard limits were permitted without schedule or train order, subject to the speed limits and partial relief from flagging requirements by virtue of rule 93. Without getting too much into the weeds for modelling purposes, this means 1) First Class trains may maintain track speed on main tracks through yard limits 2) all other trains and yard movements must be made at a reduced speed to permit them to stop short of a train, engine, cars, or obstruction of the main track 3) all inferior trains or movements must clear the time of First Class trains, or provide flag protection against them if they can't clear the main line by that time 4) yard engines are not required to display markers 5) trains are not relieved of the responsibility to display markers or classification signals by moving within yard limits. (Your mileage may vary.)
wjstixBut normally there would be cars there, so you'd be dropping off say empty cars, picking up loaded ones, and the engine, loaded cars, and caboose would go back to the yard.
I will add you don't need to runaround your train and then switch the caboose to proper end..You can simply reverse move back to the yard.
The reason is simple.Dispatchers frown on a local crew tying up his main line to do yard work.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Stix, thanks for that reply. The various replies, including yours, gives a pretty good idea of how to conduct this type of operation.
Rich
Alton Junction
We often simplify or generalize what we do on a model railroad compared to the sometimes very complicated 'real world' railroad rules and regulations.
I think what the OP's main question boils down to is "I model the 1950's. I have a cut of cars sitting in a yard that need to go to an industry located down the mainline a ways. Is it OK to just take an engine and run the cars down to the industry, or should I include a caboose?"...to which, I think the proper answer would be "yes, in the 1950's, wayfreights normally used a caboose when doing their work".
He also asks about "returning" the caboose. If the train uses a caboose, it would only drop off the freight cars, it wouldn't leave the caboose there at the industrial siding or spur track. If there were no cars to be picked up there, the engine and caboose would go back to the yard by themselves. But normally there would be cars there, so you'd be dropping off say empty cars, picking up loaded ones, and the engine, loaded cars, and caboose would go back to the yard.
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wjstix Normally, yards and mainlines are completely different - different rules, different people in charge (i.e. a Yardmaster controls the yard).
In the 1950's you would need a caboose or something with markers on any train entering the mainline. You wouldn't need them inside yard limits - which could extend several miles from what would normally be considered the 'yard'.
Around 1980 the Lake Superior & Ishpeming RR declared it's entire railroad to be 'within yard limits' so they no longer had to use cabooses on their trains.
Most of those efforts were attempts to circumvent labor agreements or laws requiring cabooses since the operating rules don't require cabooses in or out of yard limits. The operating rules require markers on trains, in or out of yard limits.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
KK Bridge We need to distinguish between the authority to move trains over the main line, and the special rules applicable to yards. Per rule book definition, a "yard" is "a system of tracks within defined limits over which movements not authorized by timetable, or by train order, may be made, subject to the prescribed rules, or special instructions".
We need to distinguish between the authority to move trains over the main line, and the special rules applicable to yards. Per rule book definition, a "yard" is "a system of tracks within defined limits over which movements not authorized by timetable, or by train order, may be made, subject to the prescribed rules, or special instructions".
Which has nothing to do with yard limits. Yard limits is a method of authorizing movements over the main track. Yard limits has nothing to do with movement in the yard itself. You can have yard limits with no yard and a yard without yard limits.
A yard engine, moving with or without cars, is not required to have schedule or train order authorization to occupy the main line within yard limits, and is not required to display markers. However, a train occupying a main line -- even within yard limits -- is required to have timetable or train order authorization, and is required to display markers until its authorization is fulfilled.
KK BridgeHowever, a train occupying a main line -- even within yard limits -- is required to have timetable or train order authorization, and is required to display markers until its authorization is fulfilled.
A red flag displayed on the coupler of the end car would suffice as a marker-even on a main line move.
While working on the Chessie (C&O) we would leave Russell with our caboose in the middle of the train with a red flag on the end car as our marker.
Why such a move? These cars was to be dropped at a mine and we would runaround our train and couple onto these cars and head up a branch to the mine's loadout.The front half of the train would remain in the passing siding.We would reverse move out of the branch and back to our train after switching the load out.The cars we picked up stayed behind the caboose with red flag protection since there was no place to switch cars and we didn't want the ire of the dispatcher because we tied his main up by switching cars.
We need to distinguish between the authority to move trains over the main line, and the special rules applicable to yards. Per rule book definition, a "yard" is "a system of tracks within defined limits over which movements not authorized by timetable, or by train order, may be made, subject to the prescribed rules, or special instructions". A yard engine, moving with or without cars, is not required to have schedule or train order authorization to occupy the main line within yard limits, and is not required to display markers. However, a train occupying a main line -- even within yard limits -- is required to have timetable or train order authorization, and is required to display markers until its authorization is fulfilled.
7j43k I'm not finding in the book something specifically saying that markers are not required in yards, but I'm pretty sure that's the case. Yards are treated differently than "Main track". I can guarantee you that standard practice DID NOT require flags sprinkled all over the various cars being moved. Talk about a work slow-down.
I'm not finding in the book something specifically saying that markers are not required in yards, but I'm pretty sure that's the case. Yards are treated differently than "Main track". I can guarantee you that standard practice DID NOT require flags sprinkled all over the various cars being moved. Talk about a work slow-down.
DSO17 One thing to keep in mind about cabooses is flagging requirements. Back in the day when when people cared about flagging, you wanted to have the flagman resonably close to the hind end. For example, some local freights ran with a caboose right behind the engine and another on the hind end, and also PRR using cabin cars on the hind end of passenger trains having a lot of mail and express cars behind the coaches.
One thing to keep in mind about cabooses is flagging requirements. Back in the day when when people cared about flagging, you wanted to have the flagman resonably close to the hind end. For example, some local freights ran with a caboose right behind the engine and another on the hind end, and also PRR using cabin cars on the hind end of passenger trains having a lot of mail and express cars behind the coaches.
That is true but,on some roads the flagman's job was being eliminated or reclassified as a rear brakeman.Of course the Operating Brotherhood would need to approve that job class change--usually a request during new Union contract talks as a add on.
richhotrainLet's say I have a loco pulling a string of covered hoppers to a farm siding.
In the 1950's. Generally a farm would not have a siding. The farmer would deliver the grain to an elevator (often a co-op facility owned by a group of farmers) where eventually it would be loaded into boxcars. I remember boxcars of grain (no hoppers) at an elevator I walked by on the way to school in 1965-66.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Thanks to everyone who has responded to this question. I appreciate your comments.
Dave, thanks for that reply. I was hoping to hear from you.
Regarding the covered hoppers, it was grain, not cement, that I had in mind.
I stand corrected on the era. My layout is freelance, and it is set in the 1950s so that it is not too late to run steam engines as well as diesels. But, I am afraid that I must admit to having freight cars on the layout that have build dates later than the 1950s.
richhotrain On the prototype, back in the 1950s, when were cabooses required at the end of a train?
On the prototype, back in the 1950s, when were cabooses required at the end of a train?
Cabooses are not now, nor were they ever required by rule on the rear of a train. they might be required by the labor contract between the railroads and conductors and brakemen. There were also a few states that may have at one time or another required cabooses on certain trains by law.
Was a caboose always required when traveling on the mainline?
No. All that was required was a rear end marker, which could be a red flag stuck in the rear knuckle.
Let's say I have a loco pulling a string of covered hoppers to a farm siding. Would a caboose be required?
Why is the farm using so much cement? In the 1950's the vast majority of covered hoppers hauled sand and cement. Grain wasn't common in covered hoppers until the 1960's and 1970's. In the 1950's virtually all the grain was moved in boxcars, typically 40 ft boxcars with 6 ft doors. Also grain is rarely shipped to a "farm". It is shipped to and from elevators or mills by rail. The grain moves from the farm to the elevator by wagon or truck.
You have a train moving a cut of grain cars (boxcars) to an elevator. Would they normally have a caboose? Since the train would be spotting cars at industry in the 1950's that would make it either a yard engine or a local. If its a local then it would probably have a caboose, if its a yard engine and within a couple miles of the yard, maybe, maybe not. If its a yard engine and more than a couple miles from the yard, probably yes. Once again its set by labor contract, not by operating rules.
My other question relates to retrieving the caboose from the siding. Would the loco delivering the string of covered hoppers to the farm siding be responsible for returning the caboose back where it came from?
My other question relates to retrieving the caboose from the siding.
Would the loco delivering the string of covered hoppers to the farm siding be responsible for returning the caboose back where it came from?
Think about it for a minute. If the crew takes a caboose out to an industry, they have to do something with themselves, the engines and the caboose. They aren't going to just sit out there waiting for the cars to be loaded in a couple days. They aren't going to run the engines, engineer, fireman and head end brake man back to the yard and leave the conductor and the rear brakeman sitting on the caboose in the middle of nowhere. They will go out, spot the cars and then come back, the crew, the engines and the caboose altogether. In many areas the local's engine and caboose are assigned to the crew. Wherever the conductor goes the caboose goes with him.
A lot seems to depend on State law. In the early 1940's, the Akron & Barberton Belt RR had retired all of their cabooses. Evidently, the train crews were required to ride in the steam locomotives' tenderr doghouses. Around 1947, the State of Ohio ordered the road to resume the use of cabooses, so they bought two PRR N6b cabins. Some switch runs that ran short distances did operate without cabooses; but a turn that ran the entire length of the railroad from Barberton to Akron and back had to have a caboose.
Tom
richhotrainOn the prototype, back in the 1950s, when were cabooses required at the end of a train? Was a caboose always required when traveling on the mainline? Let's say I have a loco pulling a string of covered hoppers to a farm siding. Would a caboose be required? My other question relates to retrieving the caboose from the siding. Would the loco delivering the string of covered hoppers to the farm siding be responsible for returning the caboose back where it came from?
No..A train could display a red flag on the end car during the day and the caboose could be behind the engine to simplify the switching move..At night then the caboose would be placed on the end of the train displaying 2 red markers to the rear.
The caboose would return to the yard if the train was a out and back turn if not it would proceed to the crew's away terminal and once there it would be cleaned and service and placed on the outbound caboose ready track to be used when needed.The crew would be at the RR-YMCA for a greasy meal,hot shower and some sleep before that loud banging on the door jars you awake and a loud voice calls your name and the call time.
This discussion from a few months ago may be of interest:
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/13/p/232167/2598167.aspx#2598167
From the 1959 "Consolidated Code of Operating Rules":
"Unless otherwise provided, the following signals must be displayed in the places provided to the rear of every train.......By day, marker lamps lighted or unlighted, or green flags..."
Notice a lack of the word "caboose". Or even "engine". These two items, if in the rear position, would naturally have marker lamps. But, should a train be running with a freight car to the rear, a green flag (during the day) would be required.
I am astounded that the flag would be green, rather than red. But I'm just quoting the book. I think you'd see the freight car before you'd see the green flag, anyway.
At night, it's red light(s) to the rear, except green if the train is clear of the main track. In this case, I expect a lantern would be hung on the coupler of the freight car. And a brakeman would be expected to go change the lantern color as needed. I wonder the percentage of time that happened.
I recommend getting a copy of the rule book of your favorite railroad. It is VERY interesting. And informative. My copy is specifically applied to Milwaukee, GN, M & St. L, MNS, SOO, NP, SI, SP&S and UP (Oregon Division). That Oregon Division note certainly has a certain implication.
Ed
In general, a freight "train" needs a caboose. A "train" is defined as a locomotive, with or without cars, displaying markers. A switching locomotive may operate within yard limits with or without cars, but it will not display markers because it is not out on the mainline. I have seen photos showing helper locomotives on the mainline, returning short distances to their place of origin without a caboose, but I don't know what rules applied in those cases. In general, light engine movements that move engines from one end of a line to the other without cars, would have a caboose and, of course, markers. They would be regarded as a "train" for dispatching purposes.
In your hypothetical example, those covered hoppers could probably be moved without a caboose if the engine and cars do not leave yard limits. But if they're on the mainline, a caboose would be required.
By the way, the caboose doesn't necessarily have to be at the end of the train. During the course of a local's work, the caboose's position may change from location to location.
First, in the 1950s you have a 5-man crew. Where are you going to put them all if you don't have a caboose? Where is the conductor's desk going to be?
Secondly, a train MUST have markers. You can hang a red lantern or flag off the rear coupler of a car, but since you need the caboose for the conductor and rear end brake/flagman, why not keep the caboose at the back and let the conductor hang the markers on it?
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
Gidday Rich, just shooting from the hip, so am prepared to be shot down in flames.
richhotrainOn the prototype, back in the 1950s, when were cabooses required at the end of a train?
All freight trains.
richhotrainWas a caboose always required when traveling on the mainline?
Yes.
richhotrainLet's say I have a loco pulling a string of covered hoppers to a farm siding. Would a caboose be required?
richhotrainWould the loco delivering the string of covered hoppers to the farm siding be responsible for returning the caboose back where it came from?
Cheers, the Bear.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."