Was it proper for the train crew to back into the cars being coupled on to with some speed/force? Videos I see, here at Model Railroader's videos of layouts in operation, seem to quite often show operators slam into cars with more force than I would think the prototype would use. I've never worked for the railroad. I have ridden Amtrak many miles and have never been jolted like I see model railroaders doing. Amtrak is passenger service, so maybe there is a difference. When I’m coupling on, I attempt to be gentle in the process, am I wrong?
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
You're right. Rough train handling = damage claims. When I see that on a model railroad (video or in person) it feels like fingernails scratching on a chalk board.
Tom
I believe that on the prototype, the rules require a full stop about five feet before coupling. Then a slow shove into the coupler. There was a letter to the editor in MR not long ago about this.
Remember, too, that the real ones don't have to force open the coupler knuckles (they couldn't anyway) to make a joint and that the cars aren't as free-rolling as many models are. That's one reason why I prefer heavier than recommended car weights and less free-rolling cars. As a bonus, it requires more locomotives to move a train - no need to make excuses for buying more motive power.
Wayne
Mark,
I have a day-glo-lettered card that I picked up at a train show memorabilia dealer at a show one time. It reads "Coupling Speed 4 mph." I vaguely recall reading somewhere that even 4 mph can cuase damage with some loads, so even slower is preferable. Obviously a hopper full of coal will be less fragile than a boxcar full of TVs, so speed can vary on the 1:1, too.
The key to easy coupling is getting the couplers in spec -- and keeping them there. Couplers held with screws are subject to being loosened in use, so it is something that crops up. I tend to pull the cars involved off the layout and adjust back to spec, then add a dab of glue somewhere to keep the coupler box from loosening again.
Another factor in problem couplings can be the air hoses on well detailed cars. Sometimes they hang down just right so it catches the tip of the bent trip pin, pushing the cars apart just before they couple. Bending the air hose to a different position solves this, but check the trip pin for correct angle and height, too.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
There are, however, situations where the coupling pin won't fall into place when the car is shoved in, and the crew has to try several times to get things to work. Then you might see a certain amount of deliberate banging, but this is a special case.
JOHN BRUCE III I believe that on the prototype, the rules require a full stop about five feet before coupling. Then a slow shove into the coupler. There was a letter to the editor in MR not long ago about this.
This is true for occupied passenger equipment but not so much for freight unless the brakeman sees that an adjustment has to be made in the alignment of the coupler (not too often but sometimes.)
I've watched hump yards in operation or flat switching where cars are "kicked" and when the cars slam together so hard I thought for sure the knuckle would break.
"Cushion Underframe" was a development where the load would be protected by isolating the car body from the center sill so that the shock of coupling and train slack would be absorbed.
If your load was more of a "delicate" nature you could request that the freight agent specify "Do Not Hump" when your waybill was written up. Still no guarantee here though. I know of people who have shipped passenger cars in dead-head moves and the railroad would send it over the hump anyway... sign? I didn't see no stinkin' sign.
Happy switching, Ed
mlehmanAnother factor in problem couplings can be the air hoses on well detailed cars. Sometimes they hang down just right so it catches the tip of the bent trip pin, pushing the cars apart just before they couple. Bending the air hose to a different position solves this, but check the trip pin for correct angle and height, too.
And how many times does the trip pin get snagged on the pilot of a trailing F-7 running backwards?
I have a handfull of freight cars with the trip pins cut off so they can be the first car behind the power when this happens.
Ed
Ed,
This can be an even bigger problem with snowplows mounted on the pilot.
Here, the problem is a bit trickier, but still one that is basically an adjustment to specs issue. The prototype pilot skims just above the rails. I haven't measure one, but I'd guess no more than 6" or so. On our models, the pilot or plow generally needs to be up a little more, because the vertical curves in model track are more extreme than in 1:1.
The you have the trip pin on the coupler. It needs to be high enough to clear rails when passing through a switch and this part is usually pretty obvious. What's not so obvious is that the pin can't be too high. Partly, this is so the pin will be in the magnetic field of uncoupling magnets. But it's also so that the pin won't hit the pilot of a loco it's coupling too.
The typical model pilot will thus reject that pin passing underneath it if it's too low. There needs to be enough clearance between the rails and the pilot or plow so that the pin can slide underneath the pilot, instead of bouncing off it. My HOn3 pins (Kadee 714) are about a scale 2" in diameter. Allow for a little up and down, and your pilot or plow needs to be at least 6" above the rail heads, so typically a little more of a gap than on the prototype.
Thus, it's important to get coupler trip pins in spec, not too low, but also not too high. Check the pilots on locos that they're aren't too low, even though it might be strictly prototypical, as this would cause interference with the coupling process.
Ya' know, Mike—I'm just about to the point where I might take the Xuron cutters to ALL my trip pins . I have done this on just about all of my passenger equipment and maybe 90% of my locomotives.
When I was building my layout I bought about a dozen Kadee electro-magnet uncouplers... they're all sitting in the same drawer I tossed them in in 1995!
With the diaphragms and pretty much fixed consists of my passenger trains I figured that I didn't need the trip pins anyway.
I'm amazed at how many photos I see of contest-winning rolling stock and there's that huge piece of bent boiler flue sticking out of the bottom of the coupler.
I'm not taking anything away from the wonderful engineering from the folks at Kadee but, for me, I don't think I'll ever be using the trip pins anytime soon. I have a few RIX magnetic uncouplers but can't remember when the last time was that I used one!
This would be a great poll thread, who uses the trip pins for uncoupling and would you miss them if you were to cut them off?
I have been following the work by PM Railfan and I think there is potential there.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/744/t/240200.aspx
and I have seen some Kadees with reversed trip pins (custom?) but I am beginning to have a Darwin moment and considering the consequences of what life would be like without trip pins.
Might be worth a discussion... Ed
I know exactly what you're talking about. I even started cutting the darn things off, then stopped. With the 714, you actually need the top part of the pin to help limit how far the upper and lower pieces move apart.
It's certainly an interesting question. My preference has now swung back to just keeping things adjusted -- at least until I talk myself into going with Sergent couplers.
gmpullman mlehman Another factor in problem couplings can be the air hoses on well detailed cars. Sometimes they hang down just right so it catches the tip of the bent trip pin, pushing the cars apart just before they couple. Bending the air hose to a different position solves this, but check the trip pin for correct angle and height, too. And how many times does the trip pin get snagged on the pilot of a trailing F-7 running backwards? I have a handfull of freight cars with the trip pins cut off so they can be the first car behind the power when this happens. Ed
mlehman Another factor in problem couplings can be the air hoses on well detailed cars. Sometimes they hang down just right so it catches the tip of the bent trip pin, pushing the cars apart just before they couple. Bending the air hose to a different position solves this, but check the trip pin for correct angle and height, too.
A coupler with a longer shank on the trailing F unit works for me.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
My comment came from watching videos of people operating their model railroads and doing switching along the route on You Tube. They not only back into the car they're picking up fairly strongly; but, continue backing for a car length or more after coupling on. I think these folks are attempting to show how well their layouts operate and the realistic operations they are attempting to portray. Possibly they have their momentum set too high and can't seem to remember they need to slow quicker than the momentum will allow them to do. I don't know. I didn't think cars being slammed into was good for the freight on board. If this where happening with real trains, I should think with the tonnage of a string of cars has, damage would be occurring.
mark,
Another factor would be whether the brakes are set or not. Usually they are, except in bowl shaped yards like a hump yard, where cars are kicked or dropped to roll to a stop. Other than that, standing cars may have either a handbrake or the air brakes holding the car. While some cars may be free to roll when being coupled to, in a lot of cases the brakes would seem to prevent such a long roll or shove after coupling without risking flatspots.
Maybe Brakie or someone else who's worked on the RR in train service can elaborate on what are more realistic coupling scenarios? It would seem to me such long rolls (a carlength or more after coupling) don't happen often.
"One difference between pessimists and optimists is that while pessimists are more often right, optimists have far more fun."
When I was maybe 10 around 1990 or maybe the late 80s my dad drove us by the cnw yard in Waukegan, IL (I think cnw still existed then) and we stopped and parked because they were switching cars. He said "THIS IS WHY YOU DON'T PLAY ON THE TRACKS"! (Yes, he used all caps when he said it)...
The engine gathered speed pushing a car (uncoupled) then hit the brakes sending the car rolling into a line of several cars crashing the cars together. I remember hearing the car hit, then hear the next one hit the next car and the next until it got to the other end and bounced back like a slinky. One of the best days of my life. I remember thinking about that later and wondering how that was allowed.
KDs aren't "expensive" but you won't see that kind of operation on my layout. The price would get high quick. I love using the momentum and aim to kill the throttle just at the right second so the couplers "click" just as the loco comes to a stop. If you're short then you can just throttle up a tad and not smash. If you're long then you're probably not too long and probably won't smash. When non model railroaders run my trains it's the second thing I explain after the emergency stop. I try to convey the fragility. Then explain the emergency stop again.
T e d
Mike has the right of it. Gentle is the course of the day when coupling. Car owners get very upset at having to pay for knuckles and pins, and nothing ruins the crews day like having to stop switching to replace one(or having to wait for a carman to come fix it). Cuts of cars don't roll a lot unless you hit them really hard. Sitting cars will have a full set on the air, and cars on the siding will have hand brakes set. Hump yards are a different story though.
doctorwayne Remember, too, that the real ones don't have to force open the coupler knuckles (they couldn't anyway) to make a joint and that the cars aren't as free-rolling as many models are. That's one reason why I prefer heavier than recommended car weights and less free-rolling cars. As a bonus, it requires more locomotives to move a train - no need to make excuses for buying more motive power. Wayne
I agree, Wayne
More often than not when I get into a siding for a one or two car pickup I might wind up pushing the cars along without the knuckle opening enough to make the tie. Some of the "free rolling" trucks today are really free rolling!
Some of my older rolling stock is going on 30 years old and some of the Kadee couplers have taken on a rough surface, especially the ones that don't see much mileage, and they're even worse to tie on to.
Maybe a weight could be placed behind the cars when I'm making a pickup to act as a "hand brake" then remove it once the tie is made? I know there are designs out there for pins that pop up between the ties for holding a cut of cars on a grade so that might be an option, too.
Usually my 0-5-0 moves in for a little nudge until the couplers are made.
I noticed that the cars featured in the "3 Easy Car Detailing Projects" article on Pg. 40 of the Feb. MR have all the trip pins clipped off. I think I'm going that route myself... I can make a gondola load of scrap trip pins. I figure I'll have about a thousand!
Happy modeling, Ed
Back when I started in the hobby, Kadee couplers had a straight pin extending from the bend in the knuckle. Uncoupling was accomplished by raising a diamond-shaped uncoupler which spread the pins of the mated couplers apart, opening the knuckles - no need to introduce slack, although there wasn't a delay feature, either. When the Magnematics were introduced, I thought the much more noticeable trips pins to be ugly, and snipped them off before installing the couplers.
NP2626My comment came from watching videos of people operating their model railroads and doing switching along the route on You Tube. They not only back into the car they're picking up fairly strongly; but, continue backing for a car length or more after coupling on.
Mark,I will say this..A "crash" coupling is frowned on and can get the crew in hot water that will result in standing before the man in order to give account.
As far as modelers..This won't be popular but,I have also watch switching videos and watched in person and with the number of operating and safety rules they break they would be fired. I won't get into the Union work rule violations.
Why is it thus? For the majority their knowledge about operations come from a book on operation written by author that never work on the road.These books don't cover the operation and safety rules like a railroader must learn and follow.
The sadder part some of these "operators" are the first to cry "Its my railroad and I don't need any rules".Little do they know to the knowledgeable they are not prototypically operating their layout.
You mention momentum.Maybe this will help?
I use braking and momentum and one needs to learn the correct momentum setting and amount of braking needed for making a smooth stop at a switch,making a smooth complete stop before or at a coupling.
Successful switching operation with momentum and braking requires slow speed switching as well..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE NP2626 My comment came from watching videos of people operating their model railroads and doing switching along the route on You Tube. They not only back into the car they're picking up fairly strongly; but, continue backing for a car length or more after coupling on. Mark,I will say this..A "crash" coupling is frowned on and can get the crew in hot water that will result in standing before the man in order to give account. As far as modelers..This won't be popular but,I have also watch switching videos and watched in person and with the number of operating and safety rules they break they would be fired. I won't get into the Union work rule violations. Why is it thus? For the majority their knowledge about operations come from a book on operation written by author that never work on the road.These books don't cover the operation and safety rules like a railroader must learn and follow. The sadder part some of these "operators" are the first to cry "Its my railroad and I don't need any rules".Little do they know to the knowledgeable they are not prototypically operating their layout. You mention momentum.Maybe this will help? I use braking and momentum and one needs to learn the correct momentum setting and amount of braking needed for making a smooth stop at a switch,making a smooth complete stop before or at a coupling. Successful switching operation with momentum and braking requires slow speed switching as well..
NP2626 My comment came from watching videos of people operating their model railroads and doing switching along the route on You Tube. They not only back into the car they're picking up fairly strongly; but, continue backing for a car length or more after coupling on.
Over the years I have read Larry's posting on how the 1:1 runs things and how he does it on his layout. It has changed the way I operate. Though I never really di the speed track thing.
And with a industrial switching layout, I now couple slower, run engines slower, take time for the crews to do their jobs. Such as, throwing switches, walking pass the rail cars, climbing onto cars or engines, etcetera. It adds a lot more fun then, slam, bam, and speed off.
Ken G Price My N-Scale Layout
Digitrax Super Empire Builder Radio System. South Valley Texas Railroad. SVTRR
N-Scale out west. 1996-1998 or so! UP, SP, Missouri Pacific, C&NW.
Those you tube videos are great, I remember seeing them a couple years ago. There are a bunch of other railroad safety films to be found there too. They show the safe way for ground crews to work, which makes me think about how my imaginary model crews will act and where they will be. Watching 1:1 switching activities is rare (at an industry, not necessarily at a yard), depending on your location, but it's very insightful to help get that 'railroady' feeling in my 1:87 world by slowing down the operations and thinking about the ground crew.
I always stop 5 feet from the car (or so there is at least 3 ties visible between the cars) before I couple to it, then I try to couple so the car to be picked up doesn't roll at all (usually in speed step 1), or only a scale foot or two...of course this means couplers have to be tweaked and the new super free rolling cars make this difficult to achieve as they'd rather roll than couple together. I lubricate couplers with regular #2 pencil lead made by rubbing it against fine sandpaper to make fine dust and dropping it in the coupler pocket (put in more than necessary, work the coupler all around, then blow out the extra dust (be careful not to spit in it.lol) so only a thin coating remains inside).
Something else that helps is to file the parting line on the knuckle of KD's...use a fine file or emory board to make a smooth, almost polished surface, so the knuckles slide with as little force as possible (and paint won't stick very well to the faces). I paint my couplers and after a few couplings, the paint wears off in only the right places so couplers work really well and look nice too. It takes time but it gives me a nice change of pace from other railroad activities (I only have about 100 cars and a small 2'x25' layout so it's not a monumental task to work on one or three cars every once in a while if they don't behave like I want them to).
http://delray1967.shutterfly.com/pictures/5
SEMI Free-Mo@groups.io
Lance Mindheim has given clinics on the subject of prototypical switching operations. If you have a chance to see one of these presentations, it is highly recommended. Stop your train at appropriate locations to let the brakeman get off the cars to throw a switch. Don't move again until he has a chance to get back aboard. If you're using the air brakes, be sure to allow enough time to recharge the air line before moving. Things like that can put you in the mindset of a railroader, as opposed to the mindset of a guy running model trains.
I have cut most of the knuckle springs so they just fit between the two prongs with no tension on the spring (2 or 3 loops). This makes the coupler open with less force. I also graphite the heck out of the whole coupler mechanism. I also weight my cars on the heavy side and also don't mind the non-free rolling cars, (as someone else said, all the more reason to hook up more power!).
Jay
C-415 Build: https://imageshack.com/a/tShC/1
Other builds: https://imageshack.com/my/albums
Just a short hour drive up the road from my house is the Strasburg Railroad, a steam powered short line offering excursion passenger runs most of the year on a regular published sachedule - trains every hour, and sometimes every half hour, every day, seven days a week, during the warmer months, for some 55 years now.
Their operation consists of a point to point run which requires the loco to run around the train and recouple to it at each end of the run - so twice per scheduled train.
This operation is played out in plain view of those standing on the platform on the "station" end of the line. And having visited this Railroad problably some 30-40 times in my lifetime, I have watched this process of them coupling a steam loco to a string of passenger cars that are being unloaded and loaded at the same time many times - maybe as many as 100 times.
And every time it is the same, the loco engineer stops the loco about 5 feet from the cars, the conductor makes sure the couplers are in line and fully open, then he directs the engineer to move toward the cars, indicating the closing distance with his hands.
As the couplers meet the conductor closes his fist, then waves his hand, the cars are coupled, and the train did not move an inch. The conductor then connects the air hose and opens the angle cocks.
In all my many visits to Strasburg, I can only remember once or twice feeling even the slightest "bump" as they coupled at either end of the line.
http://www.strasburgrailroad.com/
Sheldon
Now a few thoughts on model coupling in HO scale.
I use only regular head genuine Kadee couplers for more consistant operation.
The newer semi scale couplers may look a little better, but they actually have the same, or slightly more, train length slack, plus they require more coupling force, especially when coupling to a regular head coupler.
Side note - my other reason for not using semi scale couplers is side to side position, commonly called gathering range. The gathering range of the regular Kadee is larger than the tolerances of wheel guage and track width with regular NMRA track standards. The semi scale couplers have a gathering range smaller than these tolerances, making the chance of coupler miss-alignment greater.
Personally, I think the trip pins look just fine as air hoses in a coupled train - our hobby is full of compromises, this one is reasonable. That said, they must be correctly adjusted. That does not mean bent upwards like a "J" hook the way so many of the generic couplers on RTR cars are these days.
Correctly adjusted means adjusted per the Kadee instructions, with the bottom end parallel to the rail - period.
Correctly adjusted they don't hit anything, don't catch anything (except maybe a loco pilot or two - more on that later) and cause no problems - and if you chose to use magnets - it makes them work correctly.
Now I should also mention that I am a big fan of close coupling - that is reducing the distance between cars to as close to a scale distance as possible - especially on MU diesel lashups and passenger cars. This can casue issues on some diesel pilots - but I find if you just shave a little off the bottom of the pilot, so the correctly, not "J" hooked, trip pin can slide under it, you are generally OK.
Car weight and rolling resistance - I like free rolling cars, I have done a lot of work in that area to pull longer trains. But my methods also prefer cars to be well weighted - as per the NMRA RP - so I find that the cars have enough mass to stay still, despite being free rolling - again assuming the couplers are properly installed and lubed.
Throttles and momentum - I don't really like momentum, except to the very slight degree that my Train Engineer throttles have it even with the momentum set to minimum. One of the best fetures of that throttle is that using push buttons, the rate of change in speed is built into the electronics, not a function of how fast you can turn a knob.
That said, it is easy to learn when the train will stop, or stop it in advance then ease it back the rest of the way, and thereby allow for very smooth coupling - just like my description of coupling at Strasburg - without even moving the car being coupled.
In fact, it was this very operation of smooth coupling that was a subject of some of the many tests I subjected the Train Engineer throttle to before selecting it for my layout.
Coupling should be painless.....
Just a few thoughts, huh?
NP2626 Just a few thoughts, huh?
The Architect and Designer Mies van der Rohe said "God is in the details", sorry the details are so much trouble.
I will just go away now.