QUOTE: Originally posted by ebriley QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy Andn I'm a northern Illinois boy who knows better. While most people around Chicago (75% of the state's population) think anywhere south of I-80 is southern Illinois, I know it doesn't really start until about Centralia! You're right about Centralia. Back when I was young and foolish and thought I was gonna be a star I worked at WCNT in Centralia. It has other call letters now. The local paper had a sign on their building which read, "Egypt's Greatest Daily". We did not air mine reports, but as I mentioned earlier WGGH did. It was fascinating for this city boy from Missouri to hear. "Mines working tomorrow: Mama Joliet, Papa Joliet, "...etc. For a while I couldn't figure out what they were talking about. Incidentally, Centraia was named after the Illinois Central railroad. Either IC or CB&Q (can't remember) had shops there, and the town used to be litterally cut in two by railroad tracks with only a few grade crossings to get to the other side of town. Cheers,
QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy Andn I'm a northern Illinois boy who knows better. While most people around Chicago (75% of the state's population) think anywhere south of I-80 is southern Illinois, I know it doesn't really start until about Centralia!
QUOTE: Originally posted by ebriley Originally posted by orsonroy tr Chicago, until recently (mid-1960s) got almost all it's coal from central Illinois. The folks in Southern Illinois, also known as Little Egypt, are a proud lot and would be very offended at the reference to coal coming from central Illinois. The coal mines in Illinois are primarily in the Southern, not the central, part of the state. WGGH radio in Marion, Ill. used to announce which mines were working the next day as part of their newscasts. Similar services were offered on the air in Cairo (pronounced KAY row!)Metropolis and other Southern Illinois cities. The folks in that region feel slighted enought by being referred to as "downstate Illinois" by the folks in Chicago without having their coal production attributed to another part of the Land of Lincoln. Kind of a side issue, but important to some. Not totally true. Here in Central Illinosi we had many strip mines in operation in Fulton County, CNW had tracks running out to the mines. Once EPA standards came into effect the mines all shut down. I remember as a child going out and watching the large shovels digging the coal. So his comment is correct as well as you are right, a lot is still or was mined in Southern IL. Reply Edit jhugart Member sinceMay 2015 199 posts Posted by jhugart on Monday, January 17, 2005 2:48 PM Thanks for the responses. It sounds like coal heading to Wisconsin could have come via the C&NW, if it originated in Illinois, but the high-grade anthracite would have to come from the eastern mines on cars from roads around there. Reply cefinkjr Member sinceOctober 2004 From: Allen, TX 1,320 posts Posted by cefinkjr on Friday, January 7, 2005 10:57 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by jhugart Or did it go from the mines to boats on big rivers, which might go to the Great Lakes, then to Chicago or Sault Ste Marie, and then by rail to inland destinations? Check your maps. There just aren't any navigable rivers between coal mining areas and the Great Lakes. To put it another way, those rivers of coal road on rails. P&LE and B&LE, for example, both lived on moving iron ore from Lake Erie to Pittsburgh and coal from the Pittsburgh area to Lake Erie. PRR did the same thing but, of course, was not as heavily dependent on such traffic -- it was a much smaller percentage of their total traffic. Other roads moved coal to Great Lakes ports for trans-shipment but I'm not aware that they moved much iron ore from the lakes. ChuckAllen, TX Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Friday, January 7, 2005 8:32 PM QUOTE: Originally posted by orsonroy Andn I'm a northern Illinois boy who knows better. While most people around Chicago (75% of the state's population) think anywhere south of I-80 is southern Illinois, I know it doesn't really start until about Centralia! You're right about Centralia. Back when I was young and foolish and thought I was gonna be a star I worked at WCNT in Centralia. It has other call letters now. The local paper had a sign on their building which read, "Egypt's Greatest Daily". We did not air mine reports, but as I mentioned earlier WGGH did. It was fascinating for this city boy from Missouri to hear. "Mines working tomorrow: Mama Joliet, Papa Joliet, "...etc. For a while I couldn't figure out what they were talking about. Incidentally, Centraia was named after the Illinois Central railroad. Either IC or CB&Q (can't remember) had shops there, and the town used to be litterally cut in two by railroad tracks with only a few grade crossings to get to the other side of town. Cheers, Reply Edit michealfarley Member sinceApril 2003 From: Fargo, ND 136 posts Posted by michealfarley on Thursday, January 6, 2005 12:55 PM Here in Fargo, ND, there are regular carloads of coal in "Reading & Northern" coal hoppers that go west full of hard black diamonds. I really wish I knew where they were they went. From here they go west towards the Montana Rail Link. Micheal Farley Fargo, ND NCE Powerhouse user Modeling the BN in ND, circa 1970-1980 Reply ericsp Member sinceMay 2015 5,134 posts Posted by ericsp on Wednesday, January 5, 2005 7:06 PM QUOTE: After 1970, PRB coal and Rocky Mountain coal pushes east into the Midwest. The only regular, large-volume move I know about of coal from Appalachia west of Chicago after 1970 is in the 1988-1998 period, met coal for Geneva Steel at Geneva, Utah. That coal originated variously on Conrail, CSX, and NS. In the article about steel and railroads in the November 2002 issue of Trains the photograph of the rail yard at Geneva Steel shows a long string of NW/NS hoppers sitting there. "No soup for you!" - Yev Kassem (from Seinfeld) Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 5, 2005 4:50 PM Whew.. alot of fuel here to burn. I throw in my two tiny cents here.. 1- OIL fired home heating was in my home as a child where homes had the ability to accomodate coal bunkers for heating. To have oil was to be modern in the day and very much one of the reasons coal was not really delivered to homes after WW2. 2- Speed is not important. What they want is STEADY supply. It was important for large steam to be able to keep that long coal train moving at 10 mph no matter what hill was in the way. And large yards stored trains of coal until it was needed at the port. My two cents. Reply Edit orsonroy Member sinceMarch 2002 From: Elgin, IL 3,677 posts Posted by orsonroy on Wednesday, January 5, 2005 3:40 PM Sure there's a lot of coal in Little Egypt, but most of the CHICAGO coal came from Com Ed mines, and they were pretty much all in central Illinois, and hauled out by the C&IM (a ComEd subsidiary), the IC and the C&NW. Southern Illinois coal headed to the Mississippi or Ohio rivers, to be barged elsewhere. Most people don't realize just how much coal sits under us here in Illinois. According to the ISGS, there have been over 4500 coal mines in 73 counties. If you REALLY want to know more, most of these mines have been mapped out and are online: http://www.isgs.uiuc.edu/servs/pubs/coalmps.htm Andn I'm a northern Illinois boy who knows better. While most people around Chicago (75% of the state's population) think anywhere south of I-80 is southern Illinois, I know it doesn't really start until about Centralia! Ray Breyer Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943 Reply coalminer3 Member sinceJanuary 2001 From: WV 1,251 posts Posted by coalminer3 on Wednesday, January 5, 2005 1:46 PM C&O shipped "Tide" coal and "Lake" coal from this part of WV. Tide coal, as the name implied traveled to Tidewater Virginia where it was loaded onto ships. Lake coal went to the Great Lakes. This was met coal. For those who are modelers, shifters around here handled both C&O and VGN cars, depending on which mine shipped via which railroad. VGN cars were interchanged to that road, of course. It got interesting after the N&W swallowed up several other roads as we would see VGN, NKP and N&W cars in C&O yard at Raleigh. Traffic pattern remained the same, of course, until the entire mining picture changed around here roughly 10-15 byrs ago. E. Briley - amen - Illinois miners were/are good folks to work with. BTW, you can win a lot of bar bets re existence of CB&Q coalfield service in Illinois. BTW, one of my all time favorite train names was the C&EI's "Egyptian Zipper." They don't name 'em like that anymore. Hope this helps work safe Reply Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, January 5, 2005 1:13 PM Originally posted by orsonroy tr Chicago, until recently (mid-1960s) got almost all it's coal from central Illinois. The folks in Southern Illinois, also known as Little Egypt, are a proud lot and would be very offended at the reference to coal coming from central Illinois. The coal mines in Illinois are primarily in the Southern, not the central, part of the state. WGGH radio in Marion, Ill. used to announce which mines were working the next day as part of their newscasts. Similar services were offered on the air in Cairo (pronounced KAY row!)Metropolis and other Southern Illinois cities. The folks in that region feel slighted enought by being referred to as "downstate Illinois" by the folks in Chicago without having their coal production attributed to another part of the Land of Lincoln. Kind of a side issue, but important to some. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 1, 2005 5:02 PM Up here in New Hampshire we get unit trains from NS. I believe they orginate in PA somewhere. Back in the 70's we got unit trains from P&LE (Pittsburgh and Lake Erie) then it was Conrail and now NS thru trains. In the last few years the two major coal fired plants in New England (PSNH - Bow, NH and Mt Tom in Western, MA) have got some coal from the Powder River via UP/NS/GRS. Most of this has gone to Mt. Tom, but atleast 1 unit train came up her to Bow, NH. I believe over 2,500 miles from Wyoming to Massachuttes and New Hampshire. It typically takes about 7-10 days to make it out here. Josh Reply Edit dehusman Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: Omaha, NE 10,621 posts Posted by dehusman on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 4:04 PM Anthracite was the premium home heating coal, so it would have been in fairly major cities in the northern half of the country. But it probably wouldn't have been the average heating coal west of the Mississippi. And as soon as oil or gas became common, it would have replaced by oil or gas heaters. There are still anthracite shipments in single car loads from PA to ID for a plant that make paint pigments (I have been told that the coal is used to make titanium oxide which is, ironically, a white pigment). Every so often a Reading, Blue Mountain and Northern hopper comes through Omaha. Dave H. Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com Reply ndbprr Member sinceSeptember 2002 7,486 posts Posted by ndbprr on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 12:31 PM A lot of opinion in some of the posts that shouldn't be taken as fact without checking. A couple of points: 1. Dependent on the era you model coal travels long distances in unit trains today. The Powder RIver Basin in Wyoming (I think) generates many trains daily for BNSF and UP now but CNW was a player before merger. That coal is going at least as far as Chicago to power plants due to the natural low sulfur content. 2. In the early 70's Detroit Edison contracted with coal sources in Pennsylvania to supply coal to their power plants and had unit trains with Det. Ed. power on the head end. 3. Pennsylvania coal east of the Susquehanna was primarily Anthracite which is phenomenal stuff. When I was a kid in Philly we had a three day power outage due to snow and ice and my father was able to get two 25# bags of anthracite which burned in our fireplace with virtually no ash for the three days. A carload would last somebody a long time and was a premium commodity. 4. As a kid in Philly both the PRR and the REading had elevated mainlines that were lined with coal dealer spurs that took 2-10 cars at a time. I suspect that was fairly common across the country back to the turn of the century. I suspect that the farther back in time you go the more likley the source was local since polution was a sign of progress not a hazzard. 5. My opionion is that Appalchian coal rarely traveled west of the mississippi with the exception of antharcite but would have to research it. Reply orsonroy Member sinceMarch 2002 From: Elgin, IL 3,677 posts Posted by orsonroy on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 10:12 AM The proto guys have mentioned videos and wheel reports from the 1950s that show N&W twin hoppers in California on the UP and SP, but that wasn't all that common an occurance. Mostly, hoppers stayed in their home region. Remember that there's different types of coal, and that different sources of coal have been tapped at different points in history. In the good old days, most soft coal was used for powerplants, while hard coal was used for home heating. It wasn't all that uncommon to see a Reading or LV twin hopper sitting in Wisconsin, on a team track (my own research has hinted that most fuel dealers in the Midwest didn't have their own spurs. Instead, a twin hopper was spotted on an elevator siding, and the coal was dumped on the ground. Remember, manual labor was cheap back then!) As for transloading between ships and rails, I've only ever heard of it being a one way deal. Trains pulled the coal out of the mountains, loaded it to ships, and the ships took it to it's final destination. That's one reason why heavy industry and power plants are situated next to navigable waterways: bulk mineral unloading. Coal might have been moved from ship to rails when we sold it overseas, but the American transportation system usually won't ever do this, due to high time and cost considerations. Chicago, until recently (mid-1960s) got almost all it's coal from central Illinois. The C&IM, Rock Island, and C&NW would pull it out of the ground, move it to Peoria, and dump it into barges. From there, the barges would move the coal to Chicago, where clamshell scoops would pile it up for use by the utilities. Most steel production coal came from Buffalo on lake freighters. Coal heat dealers would get their coal from a variety of sources, depending on which salesman got to them first. Remember, every single coal car movement until about 1960 was an individual movement, by law. No such thing as unit trains and their discounts, so if you could get someone to buy your coal that was 10 states away, the railroads loved it (more cash in their pockets). Ray Breyer Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943 Reply jhugart Member sinceMay 2015 199 posts Just how far did Applachian coal travel via train? Posted by jhugart on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 9:19 AM I could see how coal might move economically via boat, but if coal needed to be shipped to something like the interior of the states of Illinois or Wisconsin, was it mined in the east and rolled via train from places like West Virginia? Or did it go from the mines to boats on big rivers, which might go to the Great Lakes, then to Chicago or Sault Ste Marie, and then by rail to inland destinations? Reply Subscriber & Member Login Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more! Login Register Users Online There are no community member online Search the Community ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT Model Railroader Newsletter See all Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox! Sign up
Originally posted by orsonroy tr Chicago, until recently (mid-1960s) got almost all it's coal from central Illinois. The folks in Southern Illinois, also known as Little Egypt, are a proud lot and would be very offended at the reference to coal coming from central Illinois. The coal mines in Illinois are primarily in the Southern, not the central, part of the state. WGGH radio in Marion, Ill. used to announce which mines were working the next day as part of their newscasts. Similar services were offered on the air in Cairo (pronounced KAY row!)Metropolis and other Southern Illinois cities. The folks in that region feel slighted enought by being referred to as "downstate Illinois" by the folks in Chicago without having their coal production attributed to another part of the Land of Lincoln. Kind of a side issue, but important to some.
QUOTE: Originally posted by jhugart Or did it go from the mines to boats on big rivers, which might go to the Great Lakes, then to Chicago or Sault Ste Marie, and then by rail to inland destinations?
ChuckAllen, TX
QUOTE: After 1970, PRB coal and Rocky Mountain coal pushes east into the Midwest. The only regular, large-volume move I know about of coal from Appalachia west of Chicago after 1970 is in the 1988-1998 period, met coal for Geneva Steel at Geneva, Utah. That coal originated variously on Conrail, CSX, and NS.
"No soup for you!" - Yev Kassem (from Seinfeld)
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943
Originally posted by orsonroy tr Chicago, until recently (mid-1960s) got almost all it's coal from central Illinois. The folks in Southern Illinois, also known as Little Egypt, are a proud lot and would be very offended at the reference to coal coming from central Illinois. The coal mines in Illinois are primarily in the Southern, not the central, part of the state. WGGH radio in Marion, Ill. used to announce which mines were working the next day as part of their newscasts. Similar services were offered on the air in Cairo (pronounced KAY row!)Metropolis and other Southern Illinois cities. The folks in that region feel slighted enought by being referred to as "downstate Illinois" by the folks in Chicago without having their coal production attributed to another part of the Land of Lincoln. Kind of a side issue, but important to some. Reply Edit Anonymous Member sinceApril 2003 305,205 posts Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, January 1, 2005 5:02 PM Up here in New Hampshire we get unit trains from NS. I believe they orginate in PA somewhere. Back in the 70's we got unit trains from P&LE (Pittsburgh and Lake Erie) then it was Conrail and now NS thru trains. In the last few years the two major coal fired plants in New England (PSNH - Bow, NH and Mt Tom in Western, MA) have got some coal from the Powder River via UP/NS/GRS. Most of this has gone to Mt. Tom, but atleast 1 unit train came up her to Bow, NH. I believe over 2,500 miles from Wyoming to Massachuttes and New Hampshire. It typically takes about 7-10 days to make it out here. Josh Reply Edit dehusman Member sinceSeptember 2003 From: Omaha, NE 10,621 posts Posted by dehusman on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 4:04 PM Anthracite was the premium home heating coal, so it would have been in fairly major cities in the northern half of the country. But it probably wouldn't have been the average heating coal west of the Mississippi. And as soon as oil or gas became common, it would have replaced by oil or gas heaters. There are still anthracite shipments in single car loads from PA to ID for a plant that make paint pigments (I have been told that the coal is used to make titanium oxide which is, ironically, a white pigment). Every so often a Reading, Blue Mountain and Northern hopper comes through Omaha. Dave H. Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com Reply ndbprr Member sinceSeptember 2002 7,486 posts Posted by ndbprr on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 12:31 PM A lot of opinion in some of the posts that shouldn't be taken as fact without checking. A couple of points: 1. Dependent on the era you model coal travels long distances in unit trains today. The Powder RIver Basin in Wyoming (I think) generates many trains daily for BNSF and UP now but CNW was a player before merger. That coal is going at least as far as Chicago to power plants due to the natural low sulfur content. 2. In the early 70's Detroit Edison contracted with coal sources in Pennsylvania to supply coal to their power plants and had unit trains with Det. Ed. power on the head end. 3. Pennsylvania coal east of the Susquehanna was primarily Anthracite which is phenomenal stuff. When I was a kid in Philly we had a three day power outage due to snow and ice and my father was able to get two 25# bags of anthracite which burned in our fireplace with virtually no ash for the three days. A carload would last somebody a long time and was a premium commodity. 4. As a kid in Philly both the PRR and the REading had elevated mainlines that were lined with coal dealer spurs that took 2-10 cars at a time. I suspect that was fairly common across the country back to the turn of the century. I suspect that the farther back in time you go the more likley the source was local since polution was a sign of progress not a hazzard. 5. My opionion is that Appalchian coal rarely traveled west of the mississippi with the exception of antharcite but would have to research it. Reply orsonroy Member sinceMarch 2002 From: Elgin, IL 3,677 posts Posted by orsonroy on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 10:12 AM The proto guys have mentioned videos and wheel reports from the 1950s that show N&W twin hoppers in California on the UP and SP, but that wasn't all that common an occurance. Mostly, hoppers stayed in their home region. Remember that there's different types of coal, and that different sources of coal have been tapped at different points in history. In the good old days, most soft coal was used for powerplants, while hard coal was used for home heating. It wasn't all that uncommon to see a Reading or LV twin hopper sitting in Wisconsin, on a team track (my own research has hinted that most fuel dealers in the Midwest didn't have their own spurs. Instead, a twin hopper was spotted on an elevator siding, and the coal was dumped on the ground. Remember, manual labor was cheap back then!) As for transloading between ships and rails, I've only ever heard of it being a one way deal. Trains pulled the coal out of the mountains, loaded it to ships, and the ships took it to it's final destination. That's one reason why heavy industry and power plants are situated next to navigable waterways: bulk mineral unloading. Coal might have been moved from ship to rails when we sold it overseas, but the American transportation system usually won't ever do this, due to high time and cost considerations. Chicago, until recently (mid-1960s) got almost all it's coal from central Illinois. The C&IM, Rock Island, and C&NW would pull it out of the ground, move it to Peoria, and dump it into barges. From there, the barges would move the coal to Chicago, where clamshell scoops would pile it up for use by the utilities. Most steel production coal came from Buffalo on lake freighters. Coal heat dealers would get their coal from a variety of sources, depending on which salesman got to them first. Remember, every single coal car movement until about 1960 was an individual movement, by law. No such thing as unit trains and their discounts, so if you could get someone to buy your coal that was 10 states away, the railroads loved it (more cash in their pockets). Ray Breyer Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943 Reply jhugart Member sinceMay 2015 199 posts Just how far did Applachian coal travel via train? Posted by jhugart on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 9:19 AM I could see how coal might move economically via boat, but if coal needed to be shipped to something like the interior of the states of Illinois or Wisconsin, was it mined in the east and rolled via train from places like West Virginia? Or did it go from the mines to boats on big rivers, which might go to the Great Lakes, then to Chicago or Sault Ste Marie, and then by rail to inland destinations? Reply Subscriber & Member Login Login, or register today to interact in our online community, comment on articles, receive our newsletter, manage your account online and more! Login Register Users Online There are no community member online Search the Community ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT ADVERTISEMENT Model Railroader Newsletter See all Sign up for our FREE e-newsletter and get model railroad news in your inbox! Sign up
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com