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Dwarf signals used in engine service facilities?

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Dwarf signals used in engine service facilities?
Posted by hon30critter on Thursday, March 6, 2014 10:57 PM

Hi everyone:

I am exploring making my own dwarf signals and I need to figure out how many I need. I have my yard figured out but I don't know what I need in my service facility. It is fairly small with a three stall roundhouse and turntable, a paint shop, a diesel repair building, a caboose supply spur, and a couple of spurs leading to the steam generator plant and short storage tracks.

My question is: would there have been dwarf signals used to control traffic in such a small facility? I am modelling the late transition era.

Thanks

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by mlehman on Friday, March 7, 2014 12:34 AM

Dave,

I'd never say never, but I suspect if there were, it was only to control entry and exit to and from the facility onto the main or running track. Within the facility it was usually low speed, yard rules-type of restrictiona that governed. Larger -facilities might have their own special rules, such as hostlers only move engines to the ready track, etc, but usually nothing that would require signals to sort out.

Mike Lehman

Urbana, IL

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Posted by hon30critter on Friday, March 7, 2014 2:08 AM

Hi Mike:

Thanks for your answer. You confirm what I suspected. That's great. Now I don't have to make as many dwarf signals.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by dehusman on Friday, March 7, 2014 7:01 AM

Unless you are modeling a hump yard, you would probably only need 2 maybe 3 signals, just at the places there was a connection from the yard into the main track.

Inside the yard, signals are very rare.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by hon30critter on Sunday, March 9, 2014 10:45 PM

Dave H:

Thanks for confirming my suspicions. Sorry to take so long to respond.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by charlie9 on Wednesday, March 12, 2014 12:37 PM

The last major yard I worked in had dwarf or "pot" signals at each end where the main line was accessed.  About midway in the yard was a crossover that went out onto the main but it had no signal at all.  It had an electric lock that was controlled by the block operator at one end of the yard and best I can remember, it took 9 minutes for the clock to run down so he could unlock it.  This eleminated the need for a signal since the operators held all opposing traffic when the crossover was to be unlocked.

Charlie

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Posted by hon30critter on Wednesday, March 12, 2014 5:06 PM

Thanks Charlie

My plan to install dwarf signals on every turnout in the freight yard seems to be running afoul of prototype practises.

I'll have to rethink this.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by richhotrain on Wednesday, March 12, 2014 5:17 PM

hon30critter

Thanks Charlie

My plan to install dwarf signals on every turnout in the freight yard seems to be running afoul of prototype practises.

I'll have to rethink this.

Dave

 

How disappointing!   Crying

So much for those 45 dwarfs.   Super Angry

Oh well.   Sigh

Rich

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Posted by dehusman on Wednesday, March 12, 2014 9:49 PM

richhotrain

So much for those 45 dwarfs.   Super Angry

Oh well.   Sigh

 

It also saves you 6.43 Snow Whites.

 

Dave H.

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Posted by hon30critter on Wednesday, March 12, 2014 10:42 PM

Rich:

I think I have it down to 40!Laugh

I said I would "rethink" the dwarfs. They are not cancelled just yet! I still like the idea of having them lit up on my layout because I am nuts about lighting effects. I'm going to experiment with scratch building a couple to see how easy or not it would be. Trevor made a great suggestion about using a Kadee coupler box to form the lamp shade and the front face of the signal. That would save a lot of time. I also did a closer examination of their placements and I realized that eight of them do not need to be lit because they face away from the viewer.

Dave H:

Took me a minute!LaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh. I could put a Snow White figure in the control tower just for fun.Smile, Wink & Grin

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by gmpullman on Thursday, March 13, 2014 12:50 AM

Hi, Dave

Take a look at this beautiful photo by Jack Delano of the C&NW Proviso yard. Even though it is a hump yard there are plenty of dwarf signals there. At least having this photo handy if a visitor tells you that there would NEVER be dwarf signals in a yard you could point to this!

http://www.shorpy.com/node/11257?size=_original#caption

My roundhouse lead crosses the main and it will be signalled eventually, just not real sure of how I want to set it up just yet.

Have fun, Ed

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, March 13, 2014 5:01 AM

Dave, based on that photo link that Ed provided, there is still hope for that Christmas tree effect.  Cool

Rich

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Posted by mlehman on Thursday, March 13, 2014 6:28 AM

gmpullman
http://www.shorpy.com/node/11257?size=_original#caption

Nice pic, but those aren't dwarf signals, they're lighted switchstand targets. A slight distinction, to be sure, but still may work if more lights are wanted.

Mike Lehman

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, March 13, 2014 6:35 AM

mlehman

 

 
gmpullman
http://www.shorpy.com/node/11257?size=_original#caption

 

Nice pic, but those aren't dwarf signals, they're lighted switchstand targets. A slight distinction, to be sure, but still may work if more lights are wanted.

 

What's the difference?  Don't they both accomplish the same thing?

Rich

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Posted by BRAKIE on Thursday, March 13, 2014 6:55 AM

richhotrain
 
mlehman

 

 
gmpullman
http://www.shorpy.com/node/11257?size=_original#caption

 

Nice pic, but those aren't dwarf signals, they're lighted switchstand targets. A slight distinction, to be sure, but still may work if more lights are wanted.

 

 

 

What's the difference?  Don't they both accomplish the same thing?

Rich

 

 

No..A switch stand target told the crew which way the yard switch is lined and can be line for their move without authorization while a dwarf signal governs train movement by a tower operator or local dispatcher.

Larry

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Summerset Ry.


"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt  Safety First!"

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, March 13, 2014 6:58 AM

BRAKIE

 

 
richhotrain
 
mlehman

 

 
gmpullman
http://www.shorpy.com/node/11257?size=_original#caption

 

Nice pic, but those aren't dwarf signals, they're lighted switchstand targets. A slight distinction, to be sure, but still may work if more lights are wanted.

 

 

 

What's the difference?  Don't they both accomplish the same thing?

Rich

 

 

 

 

No..A switch stand target told the crew which way the yard switch is lined and can be line for their move without authorization while a dwarf signal governs train movement by a tower operator or local dispatcher.

 

But, that is my point, they accomplish the same thing.

Rich

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Posted by dehusman on Thursday, March 13, 2014 7:45 AM

Switch targets look different than dwarf signals.

Switch targets work differently than dwarf signals.

Switch targets mean something different than dwarf signals.

Switch targets have different indications than dwarf signals.

Switch targets are governed by different rules than dwarf signals.

Other than everything being different they are exactly the same.  8-)

A lot of modelers use dwarf signals as switch indicators.  Its not strictly prototypical but they like having lights  as visual indicators for the switch positions.  If you want them, install them.  Just realize if you go looking for "how the prototype did it", the answer is they didn't do it that way.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by BRAKIE on Thursday, March 13, 2014 7:56 AM

richhotrain
But, that is my point, they accomplish the same thing. Rich

Usually a dwarf signal is used when leaving the yard unlike a switch target which does nothing but,indicates the direction the switch is thrown and doesn't give permission to enter the main like a dwarf signal would.

As I mention you can line a yard switch for your move without authorization but,woe be to the crew that lines a switch for their move that is govern by a dwarf signal.

See the difference?

Larry

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Posted by richhotrain on Thursday, March 13, 2014 8:07 AM

LOL

Sure, I  see the difference but, as I say, they accomplish the same thing.

Rich

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Posted by hon30critter on Thursday, March 13, 2014 8:18 AM

Ed:

Thanks for the great shot of the yard! That is the effect I would like to have even though my yard won't be very large. Overall it will be about 10 ft. long plus a drill track and an arrival/departure track.

Dave

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Posted by dehusman on Thursday, March 13, 2014 8:19 AM

They accomplish the same thing for the MODELER.  They do not accomplish the same thing for a real railroad.

As examples of how they are different., switch targets have two positions, normal and reverse and they provide an indication in BOTH directions.

Dwarf signals can provide up to three indications and any given signal provides an indication in ONE direction.

There is one switch target per switch, you would need 3 dwarf signals to cover all possibilities at a switch.

A switch target only indicates whether the switch is lined normal or reverse.

A dwarf signal is normally a block signal and it governs how you proceed beyond the signal.

If a switch is lined reverse the switch target will indicate reverse. If a switch is lined normal it will indicate normal.

If a switch is lined reverse, the dwarf on the facing point side could be either stop or clear depending on what indications it allows, the facing point dwarf on the diverging route will display clear, the dwarf on the normal route will display stop.

If a switch is lined normal, the dwarf on the facing point side would be clear, the facing point dwarf on the diverging route will display stop, the dwarf on the normal route will display clear.

Unless the dwarf is part of a block signal system, then it will be clear only if the blocks ahead are clear and other switches associated with the switch are properly lined.

Unless the dwarf is part of a CTC system, then it will be clear only if the blocks ahead are clear, other switches associated with the switch are properly lined and the control operator has cleared a route.

There are modern yards that use lights to indicate switch position on a lead, but they aren't common and they aren't really dwarf signals (they are smaller).  UK and EU yards tend to have more signals in yards.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by hon30critter on Thursday, March 13, 2014 8:32 AM

Mike:

I always thought the two were the same. Shows how much I know about railroading!

Are the switchstand targets the type that rotate, or did the colours just change?

I'm still leaning towards the dwarf signals because there will be a tower in the yard despite its small size. I absolutely have to have the tower (Atlas) simply because it was one of the first structures I built, lights, levers and all. Just to show how little I knew at the time, I put a table and chairs in the mechanical room under the tower! Nice place to have lunch!DunceLaugh

Dave

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Posted by mlehman on Thursday, March 13, 2014 8:55 AM

hon30critter
Are the switchstand targets the type that rotate, or did the colours just change?

Dave,

The ones in the pic most likely rotate to change indications. Typically, they were kerosene fueled, so in a big yard like the one depicted, it was probably a full-time job for at least one person just keeping the lamps fueled.

Mike Lehman

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Posted by BRAKIE on Thursday, March 13, 2014 11:05 AM

hon30critter
Are the switchstand targets the type that rotate, or did the colours just change?

The switch lamp(target) would rotate from green(straight) to red(reverse) when thrown for the diverging route.

As far as your dwarf signals you can use them if you wish..The choice is yours.

I would use a red and green bulb or lens like a target.

Green = straight

red =reverse.

I understand the reason..I painted my ground throw handles so I will know if the switch is in the normal position(green) or in the reverse position(red) and that cut the "oops!" by 90%..

Larry

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Posted by hon30critter on Thursday, March 13, 2014 12:05 PM

Larry:

Thanks for your info.

I just remembered that Tomar makes an illuminated switch stand that rotates to show green or red. Using those would simplify the wiring a whole lot because I would only need 15 Vs 40 dwarf signals. There would still be a couple of dwarfs where the yard meets the main line. I'm sure that everyone would agree that 15 lights vs 40 would look a bit less overdone. Having too many signals was nagging at me in light of the several comments that suggested that having so many dwarfs would not be very realistic.

The more I learn the less I know!

Thanks everyone for all your inputBow. It has helped me sort through this particular aspect of the layout plan. I may actually be close to making a decision!Wow It will be a better decision than what I started with for sure.

Next step will be to order one of the Tomar switch stands too see how sturdy they are.

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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Posted by gmpullman on Thursday, March 13, 2014 12:37 PM

hon30critter

Ed:

Thanks for the great shot of the yard! That is the effect I would like to have even though my yard won't be very large. Overall it will be about 10 ft. long plus a drill track and an arrival/departure track.

Dave

 

You're welcome, Dave

I didn't think it would make such a hot conversation topic. I knew that they were for switch position indication since there would be no circuitry for detection. It would be a big headache for the S&S guys to insulate every track and turnout to show occupancy!

Being a hump yard what you see here are the beginnings of automated classification. The hump operator could easily see what routes were lined by looking at these signals as well as his model board in the tower.

http://www.shorpy.com/node/2025?size=_original#caption

These were fixed and did not rotate and were hard-wired through conduit back to the hump tower. You can see a retarder in the foreground, too. In later years switches would be computer controlled like the ones at NYC's Elkhart Yard or P&LE's Gateway Yard.

http://www.multimodalways.org/docs/railroads/companies/CR/CR%20Yards/CR%20Elkhart%20Yard%20Visitors%20Guide.pdf

Everything we do on our models involves varying degrees of compromise. I don't burn coal or worry about the water level in my boilers, or refuel my Diesels.  My people are glued to the ground and my signals mimic real operations as closely as I can get them, but they LOOK neat so I want them.

Here's another neat photo from Jack showing the rotating kerosene switch lamps. Look at that cool Hi-Wide load!

http://www.shorpy.com/node/621?size=_original#caption

Hope you have fun with your signals... Ed

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Posted by hon30critter on Thursday, March 13, 2014 1:30 PM

Ed:

Thanks for the additional pictures. I used to spend a lot of time on the Shorpy website but I have gotten away from it. I'll have to get back into it again.

This thread didn't get as hot as a related thread in General Discussion where I initially asked about copyright infringement in 3D printing. I got some curt responses about 3D printing, and then the topic of dwarf signals took over the thread and I got taken to task about those too!

As I mentioned earlier, your raising the topic of illuminated switchstands has solved a few issues for me. Thank you!

Dave

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Posted by DSO17 on Thursday, March 13, 2014 6:00 PM

mlehman
 
hon30critter
Are the switchstand targets the type that rotate, or did the colours just change?

 

Dave,

The ones in the pic most likely rotate to change indications. Typically, they were kerosene fueled, so in a big yard like the one depicted, it was probably a full-time job for at least one person just keeping the lamps fueled.

 

     Back in the 1960s a B&O yard I was familiar with had oil lamps on most of the switches. The oldest man on the track gang had the job of taking care of the lamps. The tool house was in the middle of the yard. One day he would do the lamps at the east end of the yard and the next day he would get the west end. He also kept the switches oiled and adjusted and, if somebody ran through a switch he would fix it and "forget" to write it up. The lamps burned continuously and a filling would last a couple days. Around 1969 or so they started to change over to electric switch lamps.

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Posted by hon30critter on Thursday, March 13, 2014 9:53 PM

DS017:

Thank you for sharing your experience. You just gave me a reason to have a small signal maintainer's shack in the yard with a small oil tank mounted next to it!

Dave

I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!

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