This derailment occurred right outside of Helena, MT, the area I model on my layout. Guess I can set up a scene and use it as a real life example of what can happen if tracks are too close together. I have seen other layouts with wreck scenes on them.
eaglescout This derailment occurred right outside of Helena, MT, the area I model on my layout. Guess I can set up a scene and use it as a real life example of what can happen if tracks are too close together. I have seen other layouts with wreck scenes on them.
EAGLESCOUT,
Must still be in Helena,MT, cause,I can't see it here in IL...LOL
Cheers,
Frank
Sorry, forgot to ad the link. Here it is.
http://helenair.com/news/local/updated-photos-train-derails-outside-helena/article_9cfebd7e-b1bf-11e2-afab-0019bb2963f4.html
What pray tell, leads you to the conclusion that the tracks are too close together?
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusman What pray tell, leads you to the conclusion that the tracks are too close together?
Perhaps it was the sentence in the article that said the cars hit the cars they were passing in the curve.
Of course, it could also be a string line event.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
The train hitting the cars in the siding was most likely a result of the derailment, not a cause of the derailment. It could be any cause that would make the cars leave the rails or lean towards the other track. Broken rails, drawbars, wheels, brake rigging, debris on track, wind, shifted load, crosslevel, poor tie condition, bad switch point, etc. Based on the track condition in the picture, tie condition or subgrade is probably not the cause, it also doesn't look like anything was drug by the track in the foreground. There really isn't any way to tell from the picture or the article as to the cause. Track center and stringlining derailments are really rare. If I had to guess I would go for mechanical failure (wheel or drawbar), broken rail or wind. The usual suspects.
I have a question on derailments.
After something like this, what happens with the customer's goods that are damaged? Covered by insurance?
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Since the derailed cars were empty, I vote for wind.
With several caveat's, the railroad is responsible for the damage claims. Most railroads are self insured to several million dollars.
Empty cars + curve + grade =stringline
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Geared Steam Empty cars + curve + grade =stringline
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
To add to what Larry's said, you pretty much have to have a 20-20 problem, 20+ empties in a row in front of 20+ loads in a row to even have a situation that would risk a stringlining problem.
I'm sure the spacing of the tracks had nothing to do with causing the derailment. How many trains have passed safely since those tracks were laid? How many previous problems have there been at that spot? I'm sure that a history of grief would have caused the tracks to be realigned.
Back in 1963 there was a really nasty three-moving-train mess on the Tokaido line (the original, not the Shinkansen route) twenty-odd miles south of Tokyo. The forty-third wagon of a freight train derailed, the two following cars rolled over onto the track used by Up-bound commuter rail and were hit almost immediately by a 12-car EMU train. That derailed into the side of a Down-bound EMU train... (There are, IIRC, eight parallel tracks at that point.) When the wreckage settled there were 162 dead and hundreds injured. JNR spent five years investigating, and finally concluded that the problem was a combination of worn rail and the unusual spring rate on a brand-new WaRa class 17 ton capacity box wagon. The result was a major change in the methods used to inspect rails - but no change in the local track geometry.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1963 - hopefully without major derailments)
A lot of information is not available from the newspaper account. The location is on a steep grade, likely 2.2%, and on a fairly sharp curve. I presume the westbound (uphill) train was starting to move up to the west end of the siding ready for the eastbound to clear (the w/b would be the one the newspaper described as "parked".). It would initially have waited a little further back to avoid blocking a grade crossing. There may have been a mechanical issue with one of the cars causing the initial derailment, or it may have been train forces. Poor train marshalling such as a long empty car ahead of a heavy block can cause stringlining in the uphill direction, or a sudden heavy application of brakes can cause a similar effect for downhill trains. Train crews are very much aware of the challenges of train handling to avoid both cases if at all possible, but of course it is not always possible. Once a car derails and fouls a train on an adjacent track, the momentum involved means the result quickly becomes major.
The track looked to be in good shape appropriate for a heavy tonnage main line when I saw it last October. Modern construction often prefers wider track centers today, which helps the track forces, makes meets easier with dimensional loads, and of course gives a little more margin for a minor derailment or shifted load. But most lines still retain the steam era track centers with complete success.
John
My post title was kind of tongue in cheek. It just caught my eye as I used to live in Helena, am modeling that area of the country and remembering another major train accident there about 15-20 years ago.
That section of track begins the long grade up McDonald pass and over the continental divide west of Helena. A freight train climbing the mountain somehow detached a string of cars unbeknown to the train crew and they rolled all the way back to Helena where they hit a string of parked cars in town with an explosive chemical of some sort. The wreck and explosion happened early in the morning before daylight with many of the locals thinking war had broke out. Some reported pieces of train falling through their roofs and leaving a hole clear through to their basements.
I appreciate all the comments on possible causes. I will use them next time I have a derailment on my layout rather than the obvious cause; poor track laying.
cx500 Poor train marshalling such as a long empty car ahead of a heavy block can cause stringlining in the uphill direction, or a sudden heavy application of brakes can cause a similar effect for downhill trains.
Poor train marshalling such as a long empty car ahead of a heavy block can cause stringlining in the uphill direction, or a sudden heavy application of brakes can cause a similar effect for downhill trains.
One car in a train is not likely to "stringline" (actually pretty much impossible). It might have problems with buffing forces. The train has to have multiple light cars to stringline.
Modern construction often prefers wider track centers today, which helps the track forces, makes meets easier with dimensional loads, and of course gives a little more margin for a minor derailment or shifted load. But most lines still retain the steam era track centers with complete success.
Well MAYBE it was the result of the derailment and not the cause of it - on the other hand I watched a scanrio unfold on the old Bethlehem Branch of the Reading outside of Hatfield PA where the loco crew shoving a center beam flat of lumber back to a customer literally got stuck - the train ran push-pull since there were no longer any runarounds on the operational part of the line, so the uncoupled the lead loco and the car to set out, leaving the rest of the train and the trailing loco standing on the main. As they shoved back past their train, the REALLY BAD siding, which was more or less rails on ties in mud with no ballast evident any more, sank down enough to tip the car over far enough to strike the standing part of the train. It was techically still on the rails, but the whole works was tilted enough that they couldn;t move the car. After looking around and trying some stuff for a while, they shut down the loco, piled into the cab of the trailing loco, and headed back to their base at the Lansdale station. Next moring a couple of road cranes came out and pulled the lumber flat upright so they could get the rest of the train out of the way, and block up the track. So yeah, you can hit cars standing on a siding without anything actually derailing first.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
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Again if that was the case a lot of trains would derail..
If you railfan at all you can and will see several empties behind the engines..Quick wheel sliding stopping is impossible or a train wouldn't need to take up to a mile to come to a smooth stop with a emergency application of the brakes.
A down bound train would be under control with DBs and train brake engaged and there shouldn't be any quick applications of the brakes.
BRAKIE Geared Steam Empty cars + curve + grade =stringline Not likely or every train in the U.S hauling empties or a mixture of empties and loads would derail going around a curve. When a train derails the momentum pushes the cars in various direction and if there are cars sitting on a side track they will be shoved off the track by the derailing cars.
I think there's a unknown factor here..
I been on to many trains in my 9 1/2 years working as a brakeman to buy the stringline derailment theory..
I also been on mine runs coming down grade with the DB's howling and train brakes applied..Our empties was ahead of the loads due to the remaining setouts.Surprise,surprise surprise we did not derail..Imangine that.
Wouldn't the eastbound train be downgrade in this location?
BRAKIE cx500 Poor train marshalling such as a long empty car ahead of a heavy block can cause stringlining in the uphill direction, or a sudden heavy application of brakes can cause a similar effect for downhill trains. ------------------------------------------------ Again if that was the case a lot of trains would derail.. If you railfan at all you can and will see several empties behind the engines..Quick wheel sliding stopping is impossible or a train wouldn't need to take up to a mile to come to a smooth stop with a emergency application of the brakes. A down bound train would be under control with DBs and train brake engaged and there shouldn't be any quick applications of the brakes.
It depends on what you define as "a lot of trains". The vast majority of the time nothing will go wrong, and over most of any territory, perhaps all of some railroads, it will never be a problem. Whenever things do go wrong, almost always it is because a number of factors coincided, and anything other than that full combination would have been OK. On CPR's routes through the western mountain ranges certain curves acquired a reputation through a history of derailments over the years. By instituting marshaling regulations, starting at least 40 years ago, that reputation has mostly become a legacy of the distant past. But a few years back, someone got lazy about proper marshaling and illustrated why it was needed. Once the derailed flatcars got pushed clear of the track and the rest of the train put back together, on restarting up the 2.2% grade the next several cars popped off.
The marshaling regulations are an inconvenience for any railroad. They only exist on CPR because experience showed their value. They may only prevent one derailment a year (or 5 years) within a 1,000 mile territory, but that is deemed a worthwhile saving in cost and operating disruption.
Tight curvature, up around 10 or 12 degrees, combined with heavy grades seem to have caused most problems. That curvature is rare on main lines and avoided if at all possible. But mountain topography means sometimes the track goes where it can fit and less than desirable geometry (whether grades or curvature) is accepted.
And of course a downbound train should be under control, etc.. But it is that thousandth time when for some reason there is a little hiccup at just the wrong moment. That may be due to the action of the engineer, or some minor (or major) glitch in the braking systems. And I agree with another post that indeed it is when more than one long empty car is coupled together that the problem becomes significant.
I remember a Penn Central train deraliment of a M&E train in Stoney Ridge Ohio (Near Toledo) and the cause of that significant mess was a piece of equipment hanging off the ajacent train. I would think that whatever it was became dislodged after the engines had passed as the head end crew would have saw it otherwise I would hope. It did happen in the middle of the morning in clear weather. I can't remember if it was a part of the railroad equipment or part of a load. It is also something to think of when you are standing to close to a passing train.
Paul
Dayton and Mad River RR
John,I do a lot of railfaning and seen several empty centerbeams behind locomotives as well as empty bulkheads,boxcars,flats and intermodal cars..Maybe they rebuild these trains else where but,I inclined not to think so..All one needs to do is watch the train pass instead of turning away once the engines pass.I see that a lot while railfaning..
I do know the majority of the modelers and railfans knows very little about real railroading if you read their replies or listen to them talk...As a student brakeman I learn I knew diddy doo about railroading even though I came from a railroading family and read Trains magazine for years(started reading MR and Trains when I was around 7)..
Nothing is cut and dry but,railroading can become routine witness the millions of train miles they operate yearly without incident..
Larry: I agree with your points. Railroads routinely operate safely, and that is because they know how. They also know when and where special procedures are needed to ensure that safe operation remains routine. I expect in your area marshaling restrictions are not needed so there is no reason to have any. In much the same way the operating instructions for the Saluda grade will have no relevance for your territory either.
Those CP marshaling rules from the 1970s applied only in the mountains, and only if the train was over 4,000 tons. Elsewhere it was quite permissible to have empty cars at the head end. (But of course a transcontinental train should be set up for the entire route, even if it is not necessary for the first 2,000 miles).
That has changed somewhat in the new era of 12,000+ foot trains with far greater tonnage behind the drawbar of the rear locomotive. Now marshaling algorithms cover the entire CPR system. But appropriately placed DPUs means location of empty cars can remain of minimal concern, outside of the western mountains.
cx500That has changed somewhat in the new era of 12,000+ foot trains with far greater tonnage behind the drawbar of the rear locomotive. Now marshaling algorithms cover the entire CPR system. But appropriately placed DPUs means location of empty cars can remain of minimal concern, outside of the western mountains.
Yes,Where empties are place in those 12,000 foot trains would be a concern wasn't for DPUs.Maybe the DPUs not only help move those Godzilla size train maybe they balance things out but,I've notice a lot of DPUs are on the end of the train.
BTW..I see NS is using DPUs on some tank car trains instead of the usual helpers.
cx500Those CP marshaling rules from the 1970s applied only in the mountains, and only if the train was over 4,000 tons. Elsewhere it was quite permissible to have empty cars at the head end. (But of course a transcontinental train should be set up for the entire route, even if it is not necessary for the first 2,000 miles).
We don't have any information at all to even begin to speculate on a cause. We don't know where the cars were in the train, we don't know how many tons the train had, we have no knowledge of the train makeup. We don't even know where the point of derailment is. Just because the pile is in the curve, that doesn't mean they derailed there.
All this talk about stringlining, that happens when the train is in tension, but the derailed train was eastbound, which if I've placed it on the map appears to be in the downgrade direction. If the train was in compression coming downgrade, stringlining would be darn near impossible.
We just don't know.
Oh, agreed.
The discussion became more general, and most likely has no relevance to the derailment that started this thread. The news report gave few details, and the media all too often get key facts wrong anyway. I will, however, note that a sudden compressive bump can also (very rarely) cause a car to derail a truck and possibly jack-knife. The results progress in a very different manner but, like stringlining, it is most likely when there are long empty cars on a tight curve with a lot of weight behind.
While living in Helena from 1980-2003 I remember several derailments where the railroad skirts Glacier National Park. At least one of them spilled a load of corn which the bear feasted on for weeks after the accident. The discussion about the actual possible causes of the latest derailment was interesting. I never knew so many thing could cause a derailment other than bad track. Any derailments on my layout will never be attributed to bad track laying but to one of the many other possibilities noted.
Sadly, track problems are a major cause of model railroad derailments. Its actually the first place I'd look.