Two questions. First, I know that - generally - for rolling stock; which end of the car was facing towards the front of a train was non-critical. Were there ever exceptions?
Secondly, was this also true for cabooses? I would imagine that for one with a center cupola it might not matter. However, what about one with an offset cupola - e.g. an NYC 19000-series wood caboose?
I had always assumed or seen them on the back of a train with the cupola on the back half. Funny how questions pop into your head at times about things you haven't mused on before.
Thanks for the responses...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
i think the cupola to the rear was considered more photogenic so that was the preferred arrangement in company publicity photos.
that being said, i went to work for the ICRR in the early 60's and later went to the big four just before the PC merger. i never heard of anyone turning a caboose just to get it pointed one way or the other. all the bay window NYC cabs and every PRR cab i saw were bi-directional.
sort of like passenger cars, just flop the seats over and face the other way.
charlie.
For freight cars a customer may request that the "A" or "B" end be spotted a certain way due to loading/unloading. This does not happen often.
nedthomas For freight cars a customer may request that the "A" or "B" end be spotted a certain way due to loading/unloading. This does not happen often.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Possibly in the interests of symmetry, many railroad photos (mostly taken by company photographers) show the offset cupola to the rear. I rather doubt that there was much done to assure that. Note that, in the photo you posted, the way car has marker brackets on all four corners.
My prototype had a lot of (fillintheblank)-brakes, with a brakeman's compartment on one end only. I have seen them at both ends of a train, and even mid-train, in addition to (not replacing) the one at the rear. Having assumed that the brakeman's compartment was always to the rear, imagine my surprise when I came on a photo of a short train with the open platform end of a box-brake coupled to the train, and the 'cargo' end trailing. Until then, I hadn't known that there were marker brackets on that end!
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - as prototypically as possible)
Hey Tom,
Maybe a bit OT but looking at the photo you posted made me think of NYC's use of plywood as a sheathing of cabooses and just exactly when "plywood" became available. Well, wouldn't 'ya know! It dates back to 3400 BC, a bit before New York Central began applying it to their caboose fleet!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plywood
In your photo you can clearly see the outline of the sheet just behind of the first window. An early example of quick & dirty remodeling... just slap a few sheets of plywood over her and that's that!
The Pacemaker cabooses were all plywood sheathed.
I think Charlie9 hit it when he stated that photographers were looking for that "quintessential" picture and chose the shot with the cupola to the rear. Much like steam photos with "rods down." Again... its your railroad, you're the boss!
Long Live The Caboose!
Allow me to say this,
.Would a railroad turn a caboose? No..You see that cost money since you pay a 5 or 6 man crew and another man to operate the turntable(union job class) for nonessential work.
As far as turning boxcars in my 9 1/2 years of railroading I never seen it done.In fact I seen far more "Do not hump" then "Unload from other side".I unloaded boxcars one summer when I was 15 (lied about my age since you had to be 16.) and never seen that..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
As tomikawatt said that photograph has marker brackets on all four corners, it also has markers on all four corners, so they do not have to move them when going either direction. The markers are those round red discs on the end with the cupola, you can see the other two on the other end, and it is painted half yellow. There is also usually an air whistle the trainmen could use while backing so they could signal at street crossings, and they were on both ends just like the brake wheel.
Just a red flag jammed in the last coupler on the last car was good enough of a marker, the trainman would ride the stirrup till the car was spotted. I do not know it that is still legal, but that is how it usta be done.
Yes, the cupola has seats facing both directions, and there are brackets for the markers on both ends for the marker lights. Bay window cabooses sometimes had seats that could be turned or "walkover" seats, although (apparently) some had the seat on one side facing one direction and the seat on the other side facing the other direction.
On model railroads, it's pretty hard to use removable markers, so generally guys run the caboose so the markers are always to the rear, so the caboose always is facing the same way...even if that means turning the caboose (probably by the "big five crane" rather than turntable.)
Most of my railfanning was in Milwaukee where bay window cabooses of the CNW and Milwaukee Road were the most common. But when I did railfan the Santa Fe through Galesburg at the end of the caboose era, I cannot recall seeing an ATSF cupola caboose with the cupola closest to the train -- it was always in the "correct" direction. So either they turned their cabooses or they chose a caboose that was facing correctly for the train. Or maybe I just didn't do enougn Galesburg railfanning -- in fact, no "maybe" about it.
Dave Nelson
Actually, Dave, you raise a good point. In the case of a NYC 19000-series caboose, as pictured above:
If the cupola is at the front end of the caboose and there is a boxcar directly in front of that, wouldn't that make it somewhat more difficult to see around the boxcar (from the cupola) vs. having more of a gap with the cupola at the rear end of the caboose?
Course, I guess you always go out on the rear platform in the former case to sight down the side of the train.
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Yes to a degree but,you could still see along the sides and that was more important since you was looking for shifted loads or smoke from hot boxes or dragging brakes.
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Afraid not..There was safety rules in effect and the only time you was allowed to ride the steps was when picking up Form 19s or preparing to dismount.The platform was off limits as well when the train was in motion except while making a reverse move.
wjstix Yes, the cupola has seats facing both directions, and there are brackets for the markers on both ends for the marker lights. Bay window cabooses sometimes had seats that could be turned or "walkover" seats, although (apparently) some had the seat on one side facing one direction and the seat on the other side facing the other direction.
Many of the "modern" era cabooses, both bay window and cupola types, used walk-over style seats. It makes changing directions real easy. Just flop over the seat and you're ready to go.
Besides markers being hard to change on a model caboose, if you populate the cupola/bay window with crewmen they would be hard to change around, too. It probably wouldn't look too good to see the rear end crew watching the rails behind the train all the time. (If anyone asks, just tell them they are looking for signs of a derailed wheel/dragging equipment on the ties.)
Jeff
jeffhergertIt probably wouldn't look too good to see the rear end crew watching the rails behind the train all the time. (If anyone asks, just tell them they are looking for signs of a derailed wheel/dragging equipment on the ties.)
Better would be they're checking out a nice looking babe in a convertible-alerted by the head end crew.
Alas..Railroads put a stop to unauthorized radio commutations.
BRAKIE If the cupola is at the front end of the caboose and there is a boxcar directly in front of that, wouldn't that make it somewhat more difficult to see around the boxcar (from the cupola) vs. having more of a gap with the cupola at the rear end of the caboose? ------------------------------------------ Yes to a degree but,you could still see along the sides and that was more important since you was looking for shifted loads or smoke from hot boxes or dragging brakes.
Larry,
It still seems with the offset cupola of the NYC caboose right up on the back of a boxcar - since the side of the cupola isn't flush with the sides of the caboose - you'd be very limited in your view along the side of the train. Or, am I missing something?...
Check photos of the railroad you are modeling. In my time of watching trains on the CB&Q I don't ever remember seeing a caboose (waycar to the CB&Q and BN) going cupola forward. The UP steel cabooses were center cupola, but the wood ones were offset. I have seen photos of UP cabooses going either way.
Remember that sometimes cabooses were part of labor work rules, so the railroad had to make certain arrangements by contract.
Running backwards examples:
http://www.carrtracks.com/cabdti.htm
http://www.carrtracks.com/cabgt.htm
http://www.carrtracks.com/cabsf6.htm (don't know which one is the caboose in this picture)
http://www.carrtracks.com/cabwcrr.htm
(don't know which one is the caboose in this picture)
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On the PRR/PC and Chessie(C&O) it would be the last caboose since that's the car bringing up the markers...Plus there will be safety rules as well.
binder001In my time of watching trains on the CB&Q I don't ever remember seeing a caboose (waycar to the CB&Q and BN) going cupola forward.
As far as seeing over the car in front, remember that in the steam era boxcars were normally 8'6" high. Caboose bodies were normally the same height, so the cupola up above the roofline allowed the crew to see across the tops of the cars. (Even on an NYC caboose, which had to use very low cupolas due to low clearances in some tunnels.)
Although there were some early special-purpose high boxcars built, the common transition era 10'6" high boxcar didn't start regular production until about 1936. Since those "high cars" as they were called back then blocked much of the view forward, railroads began using bay-window cabooses more often. The extended vision caboose was first made in 1952 or '53 for the DM&IR. It used a cupola above the roofline, but the cupola was wider than the car, so combined the best features of a standard and bay-window caboose.
tstage It still seems with the offset cupola of the NYC caboose right up on the back of a boxcar - since the side of the cupola isn't flush with the sides of the caboose - you'd be very limited in your view along the side of the train. Or, am I missing something?...
Nope.
Just one of the reasons the cabooses are no longer used.
KIM the conductor normally would be in the main part of the caboose at a desk doing his paperwork. The rear brakeman might be riding in the cupola to keep an eye on the train, or might be doing something else. It wasn't required that someone be in the cupola all the time. Also, in the CB&Q pic you wouldn't have much view on straight tracks, but would have some view of the train on curves. But as I noted before, that's why railroads went to bay-window or extended-vision cabooses...but until they had enough of them to go around, they had to continue using what they had.
dehusman Nope. Just one of the reasons the cabooses are no longer used.
Vision had nothing to do with it.
It was all about the bottom line.
You see..
Eliminating the caboose eliminated thousands of jobs from brakeman,conductors on road crews to caboose service track personnel,maintenance costs plus a switch crew to add and remove cabooses from trains.
A lot of cost for a nonessential car.
Now one man in a pickup truck places or removes EOTDs.
Larry, you left out one that would be big today - the extra fuel needed to drag a car that produced zero revenue. That 30-40 tons might take eight or more extra gallons of diesel per hundred miles.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
...and don't forget the caboose wasn't a safe place to be, especially at the end of a long train. A sudden stop or slowing down enough to let in (or then take out) the slack could cause a terrific "whipcrack" effect at the caboose that could easily cause injuries or worse.
wjstix ...and don't forget the caboose wasn't a safe place to be, especially at the end of a long train. A sudden stop or slowing down enough to let in (or then take out) the slack could cause a terrific "whipcrack" effect at the caboose that could easily cause injuries or worse.
That's one story the railroad use on the unknown public and government officials to gain support..
There is no sudden stops on the railroad other then kicking a car to hard into a string of standing freight cars.
As far as your "whipcrack" ..Any such violent "whipcrack" would probably tear the train apart with broken knuckles or a violent run in of slack could possibly derail a empty car..No engineer would want that on his service record..
Besides that we was usually seated and not up walking around and if we was up and walking around there was a safety bar suspended from the ceiling you held on too while moving around-unless you was a fool and not use it..
I've rode in cabooses and it wasn't as bad as all that simply because a engineer took pride in his train handling skills and he knew he had friends and follow railroaders back in the caboose...
Cabooses were designed for a method of operation in the 1800's. With one exception, protecting a shove, they became outmoded as technology improved. The technology that replaced them was safer, more reliable and cheaper.
The technology that replaced them was safer
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That's debatable at best.
BRAKIE The technology that replaced them was safer ------------------------ That's debatable at best.
Air Brakes, roller bearings, wayside detectors and many more technologies have been working on making cabooses obsolete (and railroad's safer).
Find out how many people were injured on cabooses in 1962 and compare that to how many people were injured on cabooses 50 years later in 2012. If those two numbers are close then you have debate. If they aren't then there's no debate. I'm gonna say there isn't a debate.
BRAKIE [ I've rode in cabooses and it wasn't as bad as all that simply because a engineer took pride in his train handling skills and he knew he had friends and follow railroaders back in the caboose...
[
Well said.