Santa Fe Super Chief

[Anonymous]

I am planning to run a Super Chief Train on my layout, and I have a few questions.

1. What was the engine used to pull the Super Chief? (I know what it looks like, but I don't know what the letters and stuff mean. A and B units are about all I know)

2. Where can I find this unit and the correct passenger cars (on the internet, preferrably)?

3. What kinds of freight cars should I be running? (era is 1955-1960)

4. Are there any other diesels from Santa Fe running at this time that I can use for the freight, or should I just go with the Super Chief engine?

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Postdog

I am planning to run a Super Chief Train on my layout, and I have a few questions.

1. What was the engine used to pull the Super Chief? (I know what it looks like, but I don't know what the letters and stuff mean. A and B units are about all I know)

2. Where can I find this unit and the correct passenger cars (on the internet, preferrably)?

3. What kinds of freight cars should I be running? (era is 1955-1960)

4. Are there any other diesels from Santa Fe running at this time that I can use for the freight, or should I just go with the Super Chief engine?

Try here first: http://www.walthers.com/exec/page/super_chief

Here's a place to buy on the internet: http://www.traintrack.net/WalthersChief.htm

By 1955, Santa Fe's freight F units used the "cigar" band scheme: http://www.athearn.com/Genesis/funits/f3santafeyellow/SANTAFE.html rather than the "catwhisker" scheme as shown here: http://www.internettrains.com/inhoscsafece.html

Both Athearn and Intermountain make Santa Fe F-3 and F-7 models in the freight and passenger schemes.

Andre

[Anonymous]

Sorry, I forgot to mention that I'm building in N Scale.

[Anonymous]

You basically don't have much in the way of equipment that would be correct for the Super Chief except for the car sides by Des Plaines Hobbies. EMD F7's are correct for the Super Chief. EMD's F3's made occassional appearances on the train.
Ch

[leighant]

Maybe I am being too picky.

I have most of the cars and locos to model the Super Chief. But it was an all-first-class train that pretty much ran only on the transcontinental mainline with an whole fleet of different appearing passenger trains. Five, six, seven or more daily passenger trains each direction, often with different appearance. I don't want to model that much traffic.

The Super Chief dome lounge was unlike anything else that ran on any other train, so it would be hard to run the {i}Super Chief[/i] by once and then pretend it is a different train the next time around.

Just my prejudice.

What do the engine numbers and letters mean? Electro-Motive Division of General Motors (EMD) manufactured diesels which were called "F-units", meant for freight. First were the FTs and Santa Fe got the first big batch of them for freight service during WWII but re-geared some of them for passenger service. Later came F-3s, F-7s and F-9s. Those "F" letters are manufacturer's terms. Also, generally the cab unit was called the "A" unit and the cabless booster unit called the "B" unit, so you will see diesels decribed as F-7A or F-7B.
Santa Fe also classified its locomotives by the number series it put on the locos, so some will be called in the "16 class" (locos 16 through up into the 30s...), "200 class", "300 class" and so on. Another thing Santa Fe did which was different from the A and B unit designations that generally apply to F-units. Several units would originally be numbered together as a set by Santa Fe. Say a set of 4 diesels, 2 with cabs and 2 without. The lead unit might have just the number on it, with no suffix, such as #16. It might also be listed in company records as #16L (that is, the lead unit of the set numbered 16.) The next ADDITIONAL unit would be #16A in Santa Fe's scheme, but it is a "B-unit" (booster) in general EMD terminology. (Confused?) So #16A and #16B would be "B-units" and #16C would be an "A-unit" run backwards.

One other thing about F-units. The A-units, the ones with cabs, do not have room for a steam generator to supply heat and steam-powered light and air-conditioning to passenger cars. (Yes, passenger cars had air conditioning that was steam-powered!) Steam generators WERE put into B units for use on passenger trains. Therefore, it is not appropriate for a single A-unit to pull a passenger train, but an A with a B, or an 4-unit A-B-B-A lashup or an A-B-A lashup or A-B-B would work. Got it?

Some Santa Fe red, yellow and silver warbonnet diesels were considered "dual service" diesels, usable on both passenger trains and on freight trains (I assume on special high-priority trains such as refrigerator blocks.) But most F-units used by Santa Fe in freight service were in blue and yellow.
During the 1950s, Santa Fe also had hood unit diesels in black with silver "zebra stripes". It is "fun" to zebra-stripe a diesel!

Which cars are correct and/or "close" in N scale is another story. Maybe later.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by psngrtrn

You basically don't have much in the way of equipment that would be correct for the Super Chief except for the car sides by Des Plaines Hobbies. EMD F7's are correct for the Super Chief. EMD's F3's made occassional appearances on the train.
Ch

So are you telling me that nobody in the world makes the Super Chief in N Scale? That doesn't seem right to me, but I'm not an expert.

Also, what types of freight cars/paint schemes should I be running?

Were F Units used in the 1955-1960 era?

What about the normal diesel body engines?

[leighant]

Modeling the Super Chief in N scale involves a bunch of different models from different places.

60' ltwt Budd corrugated RPO: the old ArnoldRapido item#5222 is right on if you can find one.

ltwt corrugated full baggage: Concor item#4231 is close. It has the number 3430 on it but is actually closer to ATSF 3432-3452 series. Concor’s literature says it is modeled after the ATSF 3500 series which were used on the mid-1950s Super Chief, but the 3500s were corrugated with a short section of non-corrugated side next to the baggage doors, so that the corrugations wouldn’t be bunged up by baggage carts. The model appears to be actually built from a California Zephyr prototype, and on the Santa Fe roster, seems closest to 3432-3452 as I said earlier.

About 1960, smooth side “semi-streamlined” baggage cars began running on the Super Chief. Concor’s 1-04081/04082 smoothside full baggage might be used.
Or American Model Builders car sides item#5502 for a Santa Fe smoothside baggage, series 3750-3799.

Ltwt corrugated Baggage-bar lounge-dorm: best “stand-in” is probably Rivarossi baggage-dorm #(not sold separately anymore and sold out in Santa Fe sets.)
It is “dead–on” to Santa Fe baggage-dorm #3477-3479 which was not the series usually assigned to the Super Chief but is a similar authentic Santa Fe car which ran in a similar place in the train. The 1380 series which ran regularly in the Super Chief had a small baggage door on each side flush against the end of the car, large wide windows in a lounge section and a Budd corrugated roof. The Rivarossi car has small windows in a dorm-only part of the car, a baggage door more than ten feet from the end of car (don’t have my scale rule handy) and a Pullman Standard smooth roof (non-corrugated.)

The Super Chief being an all-first-class train had lots of sleeping cars: in the early 1950s, 3 or 4 10-3-2s in the “Blue” series and 3 or 4 4-4-2s in the “Regal” series. By the mid-50s, the “Blue” sleepers were replaced by 10-6 sleepers in the “Palm” and “Pine” classes. Often a train had both “Palm” and “Pine” 10-6s in it.

JnJ item#344-3435 photo-etched car sides are for the “Blue” sleepers
I haven’t found a model for “Regal” sleepers, but you could substitute a “Blue”.

Concor’s Budd Sleeping car item#4211 is marked “Palm Leaf” but it has a corrugated roof like the “Pine” series, and the window arrangement is closer to “Pine”.

An old Concor/Rowa car from 25 years ago was a 10-6 sleeper marked “Pine Beach”, but its smooth (uncorrugated) roof was similar to Santa Fe’s “Palm” series, and its window arrangements match “Palm”. So if you can find some of the old cars, and buy some of the current Budd sleepers, you can have both Pine and Palm sleepers (but they will be lettered with names “reversed”!)

Beside the sleepers, there were a dorm-lounge, a dining car and the dome lounge-“Turquoise Room” car in the middle of the train.
The new Concor 1-426101 Budd “Parlor car” appears fairly close to Santa Fe’s 1370-1376 or 1390-1395 series dorm lounges. The parlor car probably was for daytime trains that did not have dorm space for crews. Has one or two more large lounge windows on each side than the dorm lounge, and fewer small windows.

Ltwt corrug dining car: JnJ item#344-030 brass car sides (not currently catalogued at JnJ)over a Concor smoothside dining car, item#04071. Matches the Santa Fe #600-606 dining cars EXCEPT that it does not have small square windows in the kitchen section.

Ltwt corrugated Dome lounge-Turquoise Room 500-505, a signature Super Chief car, run on no other train on the Santa Fe. I have a model from 25 years ago that was sold then by Concor as its item#0432A. Fairly close but possibly actually based on some similar but not identical prototype. By the way, since I do not plan to model the Super Chief, only trains that ran in southeastern Texas, I would be willing to dispose of this car “cheap”.
Concor has a current dome lounge in their series of Budd passenger cars-- I don't know how closely it matches Santa Fe prototype, can't tell from small picture on internet.
Budd cars generally had corrugated roofs. Santa Fes 500-505 domes had smooth roofs.
Finally on the end of the train, in the early 1950s, the round-end sleeper observation car, "Vista" series: Rivarossi item#(not some separately, and sold out in Santa Fe sets)
Is very close to this car.

And now just for laughs, a 30” x 40” layout built in ten days in 1976 using an Atlas train set to create an “impression” of a Santa Fe streamliner.
http://www.railimages.com/albums/kennethanthony/aak.jpg

You asked, "So are you telling me that nobody in the world makes the Super Chief in N Scale?" I think it has been made in limited edition brass for something like $1500 a set. But in general, almost NO MANUFACTURER of mass produced model trains makes a model of ANY actual passenger train, and never have. They make models of cars they can sell in reasonably sized sets of 3 or 4 or 5 cars to make up a "typical" train. Usually the individual cars are authentic models of some prototype, but not necessarily all ran together in a train, and there are not necessarily all the cars to make an actual train. More often there are "typical" kinds of cars, one baggage or baggage-combine, one coach, maybe a dome, one observation car. I think N scale sets were out for 15 years before the first streamlined dining car was manufactured. (Atlas/Rivarossi DID have a heavyweight diner...) Same for the common garden-variety full-baggage car. Train sets had baggage-RPO combinations and baggage-dorm, and baggage-coach combinations for 15 or 20 years before Concor came out with the first full baggage car.
Often manufacturers would make rare "specialty" cars like the domes, and dome-observations. But try to find a dorm-lounge. Commonly found on every long-distance streamliner. I don't think any have ever been made. (Not counting bra$$)

Repeating: almost no manufacturer of mass-produced plastic trains has ever madew a model of any real passenger train. What about special sets marketed for the Santa Fe "Blue Goose" train or the "Valley Flyer"? Those are sets of cars that have been selected and PAINTED to approximate name trains. But they are not necessarily models of the actual cars.
Perhaps I should make an exception for trains that run in special prototype sets such as the Metroliner trains, bullet trains, etc. I meant trains made up of ordinary passenger car construction, heavyweight or streamlined.

What types of freight cars in the 1955-1960 period? 40' steel boxcar was everywhere and some 50' boxcars too. Beginnings of DF and Shock Control boxcars towards end of period. Boxcars used not only for boxed goods like appliances and furniture and canned goods, etc, but also for grain and bagged cement. Some wooden boxcars left and some rebuilts from WW2 "war emergency" design cars built with wood sides to save steel for the war effort. 40' iced reefers and the beginnings of mechanically refrigerated cars. Stockcars. Beginnings of open-side autoracks right at end of 1950s. A few trailers and containers on flat cars over a few routes, generally on modified standard flatcars, not the big 90' TrailerTrain flats. Short 2-bay covered hoppers for cement and a few heavy bulk materials requiring protection from elements, and beginnings of hauling grain in 3-bay and larger covered hoppers. 10,000 gallon tankcars not quite 40' long were common.

Paint schemes for freight cars are a huge topic, involving knowing the periods of railroad mergers, etc. Find all the pictures you can of train from the period. Unfortunately, most photos concentrate on the locomotives, caboose or one or two unusual cars, rather than on what was common and ordinary.

Were F-units used in the 1955-1960 era? Yes. F-units were used on Santa Fe passenger trains from the mid 1940s up into the 1960s. And the F-units were placed BACK on the passenger trains in the first 2 years of Amtrak.

What about normal diesel body engines? What do you mean by "normal diesel body engines." Do you mean "hood units" like GP and SD units that are commonly used today? Yes, they were used on freight trains in the 1955-1960 period. Steam-generator equipped GEEPS (GP-7s) were used on a few local branchline passenger trains and mixed trains.

[Anonymous]

Thanks, that was a HUGE help. Just a couple more things:

1. Where can I find a boxed set of 3, 4, or 5 cars that you mentioned? I think that that would work pretty good.

2. By a "normal diesel-bodied engine", I meant this type:http://us.st4.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/internettrains_1805_6752584
However, this was a "Warbonnet." Would this be OK to run on my layout in this time frame? Would it pull Passenger and freight?

[andrechapelon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Postdog

Thanks, that was a HUGE help. Just a couple more things:

1. Where can I find a boxed set of 3, 4, or 5 cars that you mentioned? I think that that would work pretty good.

2. By a "normal diesel-bodied engine", I meant this type:http://us.st4.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/internettrains_1805_6752584
However, this was a "Warbonnet." Would this be OK to run on my layout in this time frame? Would it pull Passenger and freight?

That's an SD-45 and they were never painted in "Warbonnet". However, Santa Fe did buy some GE U28's with steam generators (U28CG's) and they did have a simplified "Warbonnet" scheme. However, I don't believe those engines ever pulled the Super Chief. Minitrix made an N scale model of the U28C at one time (don't know if they still do). Santa Fe also had 6 (IIRC) U30CG's which had a "cowl" type carbody. Minitrix also made a model of the U30CG. I don't know if those were used on the Super Chief. Here's a picture of one after repainting to freight colors: http://forums.railfan.net/forums.cgi?board=ATSF;action=displayphoto;num=1083466236;photo=ATSF/ATSF8002S2.jpg

In the late 60's, Santa Fe did buy some some FP-45's. These were essentially lengthened SD-45's with a "cowl" type car body. I believe they were used on the Super Chief/El Capitan in the late 60's. Here's a picture of one on the El Capitan: http://www.dallasrailwaymuseum.com/image/atsf_107_ElCapitan.jpg. Someone did make an FP-45 model in N scale at one time, but it was a dog.

These engines were later rebuilt around 1989/1990 and became part of Santa Fe's "Super Fleet".

Stick with the F-7's. They're what pulled the Super Chief for most of its life.

Andre

[leighant]

I stand corrected. I said something about no mass produced train sets being a model of the actual consist of a real passenger train. I researched KATO's site and found they are making a really authentic N scale California Zephyr as near as I can tell.

But does that help us model the Santa Fe Super Chief? Well, actually it does because some of the cars they have made, apparently for the California Zephyr are pretty close to Super Chief cars.

KATO has 3 sets in Santa Fe markings.

106-1502
Santa Fe Set A
Diner #1481, RPO #3407,
Observation #3240, Slumbercoach "Buena Siesta
Slumbercoaches were not regularly a part of the Super Chief consist, but at least it is a kind of sleeping car.

106-1603
Santa Fe Set B1
Baggage #3444, Coach #3077, Dome #503, Pullman "Pine Mesa"

106-1604
Santa Fe Set B2
Baggage #3433, Coach #3088, Dome #501, Pullman "Pine Arroyo"

Sets B1 and B2 are identical except for the car names and numbers. If you let the coach serve as a lounge, it would fit an approximation of the Super Chief.

So with one set A and one set B, either B1 or B2, you would have the following consist:
RPO
Baggage
Slumbercoach
Coach (as lounge)
Diner
Dome
Sleeper
Observation

An 8 car train, all corrugated silver, with the signature dome car and the swallowtail end observation.

Is that more Super Chief than your layout can accomodate?

The Concor/Rivarossi 5-car set with baggage-dorm, 2 PS sleepers, dome lounge and swallowtail-end observation also sounded like a good short version of the Super Chief but Concor said it is just not available. Maybe a "secondary market" seller on that online auction site....



Super Chief

[leighant]

You can find the KATO site at www.katousa.com

Another way to get a Super Chief set without having to cut up cars and build brass kits would be to assemble a set from individually sold cars from Concor's Budd series.
See their N scale Budd passenger car page at
http://www.all-railroads.com/instock/nbuddcar.htm

Concor says they have Budd cars currently available in Santa Fe.
1-420101 Sleeper
1-423101 72’ Full baggage
1-424101 Dome car
They also have a coach, slumbercoach and dome observation in the Budd series which you don’t need because they didn’t ever run in the Super Chief.

Concor also says they are soon to release 3 more cars, which would help your train
1-426101 Parlor car (used as a lounge car)
1-427101 72’ RPO
1-428101 Dining Car

I would buy TWO of the sleepers, to make up the following train
RPO
Baggage car
Sleeper
Parlor (as lounge)
Dining Car
Dome Car
Sleeper
(unfortunately, that leaves you without the swallowtail end observation).

[leighant]

Now for your second question...
2. By a "normal diesel-bodied engine", I meant this type:http://us.st4.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com/I/internettrains_1805_6752584
However, this was a "Warbonnet." Would this be OK to run on my layout in this time frame? Would it pull Passenger and freight?

The picture you referenced was as andrechapelon explained, an SD-45, used as a freight engine. SD-45 is a manufacturer's term for the same diesel which went to a bunch of railroads.
"Warbonnet" is a term for a paint scheme. The classic red nose with yellow trim and silver body warbonnet scheme was used by Santa Fe for its PASSENGER locomotives from the late 1930s up to joining Amtrak in 1971.
They also had early diesel switchers which were painted black with zebra stripes in the 1940s and 1950s.
switcher in zebra stripes:
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/150-50012

The first freight diesels were FTs introduced during WW2, 1940s.
Intermountain FT in ATSF freight “cigar band”
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/85-69013
Santa Fe had them in a couple variations of blue with mostly yellow trim, sometimes just a narrow line of red. Both the FT freight locomotives and the F3s and F7s on the passenger trains, and the longer E-unit diesels were called "carbody" diesels or "covered wagons."

When diesel manufacturers started taking the lines of the lowly diesel switcher and building bigger diesels to pull trains over the road, they were called at first "road switchers". Later, most freight locomotives were some variation of this general utilitarian appearance, and "hood unit" is the generic term.
The SD-45 was a second-generation hood unit.

Hood-unit Diesels made by EMD are generally designated GP when they have 2 axle trucks and SD when they have six-axle trucks,

Besides carbody and hood units, there have also been a third general type called cowl units. Amtrak's first diesels to be bought new, the SDP40F were cowl units.
http://lrs.railspot.com/amt539.htm

Look a bit like a carbody diesel but a little boxier. The difference is that carbody diesels have a body with structural framing as a integral part of the car sides to give them strength. The cowl unit has a body covering that can be lifted off its frame for major maintenance, and the underframe provides all the structural strength of the unit.

Just a little more about the "warbonnet" scheme. Up until Amtrak it was pretty much reserved for passenger locos and dual-service F7s and F9s that occasionally handled a rush refrigerated or expedited shipment. Amtrak used Santa Fe's Warbonnet Fs for the 1st couple of years and then the red, yellow and silver warbonnet went away, except on model trains. The scheme was so popular that it was used on models of freight diesels, big power hood units etc that didn't have them in real life. Being a self-proclaimed expert, I made fun of the models, though I admited they looked awful nice, and wished Santa Fe had kept the warbonnet scheme.

But the laugh was on me! After the warbonnet scheme had disappeared from the real Santa Fe for about 15 years, the railroad decided it should profit from its popularity and its heritage. They brought the warbonnet paint scheme back for their fastest big power freight trains. In effect, the real SantaFe copied what the model train world had been doing.

Turns out the simple-sounding questions you asked had a complicated answer. I hope it was interesting.

[Anonymous]

Sorry that I can't help you in N scale. I ended up in modeling the chief in HO. I did not go out to model the chief, but ended up that way.

[Anonymous]

Ok, thanks for these awesome replies. Now, I just have a couple more questions (I know, it seems like they'll never end). Right now, I am looking at the ConCor Budd Series. I am wondering, can I use their "Dome Observation" model for a swallowtail end car? Also, what would you recommend for, say, a 5-car train.

Right now, I am looking at buying One F unit, two B dummies for engines. Would these look OK pulling the Super Chief and freight?

[leighant]

Concor Dome Observation is great for California Zephyr which ran over Burlington, Rio Grande and Western Pacific. But Santa Fe never had anything that looked like it. A swallowtail observation WITHOUT a dome is appropriate.
The observation that is part of the Kato set is appropriate, as would be the observation from the old Rivarossi set which apparently is no longer available. (There were bunches of them made over 30 years under both the Rivarossi and Atlas labels so there are a lot of them out there, maybe on "that" auction site...)

For a 5-car set, the "not-available" Concor/Rivarossi set would be just about right: baggage-dorm, 2 sleepers, dome lounge and observation. But you can't get it....


Next choice: Santa Fe Set A 106-1502
Diner #1481, RPO #3407,
Observation #3240, Slumbercoach "Buena Siesta

PLUS the Concor dome car 1-424101.
That gives you a head-end car (RPO) at the front of the train, a dome in the middle, an observation on the end and two "other" cars of less obvious type.

By the way, did you know the Super Chief through most of its life was actually SIX trains, or at least six sets of equipment. In order to run a daily schedule in both directions on a 39-hour Chicago to Los Angeles schedule, one train set would leave Chicago in the evening. But the train that left 24 hours earlier would be westbound in Colorado or New Mexico at that time. And there would be a train that came in at mid-day and was being cleaned and serviced at Chicago for the next days use. meanwhile, an eastbound train would be somewhere in say Kansas, and another one would be 24 hours back in New Mexico. And the sixth identical set of equipment would be in Los Angeles being prepared for its late-night departure. It took that many "copies" of the same train to have a daily departure in each direction.

An F-7 or F-3 A-unit and two B-units sounds good for a shortened version of the Super.

[Anonymous]

Ok, well, I think that I'll buy the five cars you mentioned from the Con-Cor Budd Series, but is there a place where I can just buy an individual sleeper that would look like it goes with the other cars from the Budd Series?

Also, one of you told me to find as many freight car pictures as I could. I instead stumbled across a historical group for the Santa Fe RR and they had all of the logos that they used on the cars and in what era they were used. That site is here: http://www.atsfrr.com/resources/Trademarks/Index.htm So, instead of looking up cars, I am simply going to check the logos on the models to find the cars I need. Is this good, or should I be looking for certain paint schemes as well? If so, do you know which ones I should look for?

You also mentioned 2-bay and 3-bay covered hoppers. I know this probably sounds dumb, but what do you mean by this?

[leighant]

I left something out in the 5-car set I suggested---

The set that comes as a 4-car set is from KATO
Santa Fe Set A 106-1502
Diner #1481, RPO #3407,
Observation #3240, Slumbercoach "Buena Siesta
That is available ONLY in a 4-car set, and it has the slumbercoach which you don't really need but is okay for a sleeper.
Sorry I was not clear.

Second Concor DOES have a Santa Fe sleeper it sells individually, which I mentioned in an earlier post.
Concor item# 1-420101
I did not mention it earlier because I was trying to limit it to a 5-car total, and the KATO set has the observation you cannot get anywhere else.
The OTHER Kato set also has a dome lounge which is roughly equivalent to the Concor dome lounge, except that you must buy it in a set from Kato whereas Concor merchandises individual cars. I was trying to figure out the most efficient way to get you a 5-car set from a combination of the available sources.

Still one other matter about your statement: "an individual sleeper that would look like it goes with the other cars from the Budd Series". (I hope this is not overwhelming you.) When picking out cars to model a Super Chief, I was not specifically looking for "Budd" built cars first. I was looking for cars that matched what ran on the Super, knowing a little about the history of the cars. Many of the specific cars were Budd cars, but not all. In putting its trains together, Santa Fe bought some cars from Budd, some from Pullman-Standard, and a few from ACF (American Car and Foundry). In general, Santa Fe bought more sleepers from Pullman-Standard than Budd, but more of its non-sleeping cars used on the Super Chief from Budd. The difference in appearance: Nearly ALL of the cars regularly used on the Super Chief had unpainted corrugated stainless-steel sides, but the Budd cars generally also had corrugated roofs while the non-Budd cars had non-corrugated roofs.
Budd sleepers on the Super Chief were 27 "Pine" series sleepers (spread through 6 sets of the trains, remember?)
Non-Budd sleepers assigned to the Super Chief included 15 "Regal" (Pullman-Std); 19 "Blue" series (Pullman), and 13 "Palm" series (ACF).
So it would be okay for a Super Chief to have both Budd and non-Budd sleepers.

In answer to your question, yes, I do stay up nights worrying about this stuff.
2-bay and 3-bay hoppers later.....

[leighant]

Postdog, you asked what I meant by 2-bay and 3-bay covered hoppers. This may be of interest to modelers who wouldn't look at a [i]Super Chief[/] thread, so I am answering with a new topic called Covered Hoppers for the 1950s.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for your replies. No, you're not overwhelming me. This is the train I've come up with:

Baggage Car-Con Cor Budd
Dining Car-Con Cor Budd
Dome Car-Con Cor Budd
Sleeper-Con Cor Budd
End Observation

Would this make a good 5-car train?

Actually, in my last post, I meant to ask where I can get a swallowtail end observation, not a sleeper. Sorry. Is there a place where I can find one that would go with the train? Is it the same situation as the sleeper (where many brands ran at the same time)?

[leighant]

I only know of three corrugated side observation cars without domes that would look anything like the Super Chief "tail car".

The closest to prototype would be the Concor Rivarossi car which is no longer available from the manufacturer. (But you might be able to buy one used from a store or internet auction. They were made and widely sold for 35 years since late 1960s, manufactured by Rivarossi but sometimes sold under "Atlas" brand.

Next best, and currently available would be the Kato observation which is sold ONLY as part of a set. It is not exactly the same as the Santa Fe car, but close. You'd have to look at it carefully and compare to real train pictures or plans to know the difference. That set comes with an RPO, diner and slumbercoach, which would be a good basis for the main part of your 5-car train.

A tie for third choice: I am not sure if Model Power streamlined cars are currently available. Model Power has in recent years had a series of streamlined corrugated cars that includes an observation. The observation has exactly the same window arrangement and spacing as their coach except for the very end of the observation end. The end is more circular-round than swallow-tailed. It actually is close in appearance to COACH observation #3197 that was used on the Santa Fe on lesser trains than the Super. (Of course, since the Super was A-Number 1, any other train was a lesser!) So it DOES look like a real Santa Fe car, just not a specific one used on the Super. The observation used on the Super Chief, the "Vista" series, had 4 "drawing rooms", 1 bedroom AND an observation-lounge. So it was part sleeping car and part observation. By the way, the "Vista" series was converted in 1956 from swallowtail end to blunt square end so it could run anywhere in a train, not just as the tail car. It still had observation windows looking out through the flat square end of the car. I have a flat-end corrugated lounge-observation car from Concor-Rowa (-MRC?) that I don't believe has been sold for 20 years or longer. I plan to use it for a Tex-Mex train.

The tie for third choice would be the Arnold Rapido corrugated observation. It is an excellently detailed model of a Budd car, BUT it is a "shorty"- visibly and obviously shorter than a scale length car. I believe it was available 10 years ago or so, and was produced off and on for 30 years so there may be lot of them out there in 2nd-hand sales racks and over the internet from auction sites. ATSF did have ONE early Budd sleeper-observation on the Super Chief in the early years, the "Navajo".

Any of these cars would be closer to Santa Fe prototype than
-a smooth-side streamlined observation, or
-a corrugated DOME observation like Concor's.

[leighant]

I did a little looking on the internet to see what was available.

The 5-car Concor-Rivarossi set which is not available from Concor according to the manufacturer’s website, IS Available on an auction site. Latest bid is $25 + shipping.
http://i10.ebayimg.com/03/i/02/4a/b3/2d_1_b.JPG
This is the set that includes baggage-dorm, 2 sleeping cars, dome car, and sleeper-observation.

The Rivarossi (old Atlas) sleeper-observation is also available by itself on an auction site. However, it is lettered for PennCentral.
http://i8.ebayimg.com/03/i/02/50/de/34_1.JPG

Walthers also lists the “shorty” Arnold observation car available ONLY in Souther Pacific colors, and says is being discontinued. Your hobby dealer may be able to order it. Would have to be repainted.

That same car IN SANTA FE is on auction site for $2.26 but there have been 4 bids and may be more as deadline nears.
http://www.transactual.com/pix/aug0179.JPG

The Model Power observation is also available. Your dealer can get it from Walthers.
http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/490-3042
Why oh why is window panel painted a color instead of being left stainless steel. To use this car, you would want to disassemble, remove plastic “glass” window insert, remove paint as much as possible, paint with silver or aluminum. Decal for the Santa Fe name you lost when correcting the @#$%^&* colored window panels.

I believe it is trains.com's policy not to encourage forum user's to specifically link to particular auction sites here, might be subject to commercial abuse. If you cannot find it by guessing, email me. My address is "leighant" (without the quotation marks) followed by the "at" sign (@) and "hotmail.com". (By not writing it exactly as you have to type it, it is less likely to be picked up by a robot program gathering e-mail addresses to send spam. But I assume you are a real person.