I am considering buiding a new layout that would prototype the 4 track C&WI mainline from Alton Junction to Dearborn Station in downtown Chicago.
My questions focus on the movement of pasenger cars into and out of the station to and from the coach yard which is 8 city blocks away from the passenger station. Here is a crude drawing of the track layout.
As you can see, the tracks into the station are stub end. My understanding is that ATSF trains pulled directly into the station with locomotives leading the way and passenger cars trailing. I have seen many photos of locomotives backing down the mainline tracks from the station to the engine servicing facility in the coach yard and then, after turning around,backing down from the coach yard to the passenger station.
ATSF switchers hauled the cars from the station to the coach yard for cleaning and servicing and then back to the station for passenger usage. But, exactly how was this done? If the switcher connected to the passenger car at the tail end of the train and pulled the string of passenger cars back to the coach yard onto a stub end storage track, the switcher would be trapped at the stub end of the track. If the switcher pushed the string of passenger cars from the station to the coach yard, how did the switcher get behind the lead passenger car to push the string of passenger cars back to the coach yard?
Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.
Rich
Alton Junction
Rich, I don't know anything about that particular station - but typically stub end stations had "escape" crossovers that allowed locos to run around the train after pulling in. These same crossovers would allow a switcher to get "behind" the train to push cars into the coach yard in a situation like your drawing.
Also, most large stub end passenger terminals had a wye or a balloon track for turning cars and locos, and sometimes even intire trains.
It would be the station masters job to plan which tracks trains arrive on so that other tracks are free for engines to escape, etc.
Typically some trains pulled in, some trains backed it. Some even backed out to a nearby junction, then proceeded forward. If you can dream it up, it was likely done somewhere.
In some stations road power was cut off before entering the platform areas and switchers would push the train in from the rear.
Only by seeing a detailed track plan of the prototype, or talking with someone who worked it, would we know how it was done in thatparticular station.
Sheldon
Sheldon,
Thanks, those are great points.
I do have more detailed track diagrams. The one that follows is the trackage in Dearborn Station. There are no crossovers in the station, so it seems apparent that the switchers pulled the passenger cars from the station to the coach yard.
The following diagram is the coach yard. I don't know if the correct term is "balloon" track, the loop around the storage tracks permits the switchers to escape back to the main line. I hadn't really considered that before until you mentioned it. Even those stub end tracks at the top of the coach yard can have cars pushed in by the switchers looping around the coach yard.
My problem is that I won't have the room on my layout to create that loop around the coach yard, so I need to figure some way for the switchers to push, rather than pull, the cars onto the storage tracks.
Rich, it is cvlear fro mthose track diagrams that the balloon track, yes that is the correct term there, is how all that was done at Dearborn.
If you don'y haver room for the balloon track, think about how you could squeeze in a wye? And you could make the why look like part of the prototype ballon track.
Rich,
Are you planning on expanding your current layout, or replacing it with this one?
I sure hope you are expanding, I don't want to see your current layout tore up!!! OUCH!!!
Also, what are your planned size for this new (extension) layout?
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Motley Rich, Are you planning on expanding your current layout, or replacing it with this one? I sure hope you are expanding, I don't want to see your current layout tore up!!! OUCH!!! Also, what are your planned size for this new (extension) layout?
Michael,
Right now , a new layout is only in the "thinking stage", not the planning stage.
No final decision at this time to do it.
The footprint would be 42' long and running on a diagonal to match the prototype with layout widths ranging from 3' to 6' with access from all sides.
Time and money may keep me from doing it. LOL Isn't that always the case?
The purpose of this thread is to work out some operational difficulties with moving cars in and out of Dearborn Station to the ATSF coach yard 10 blocks away.
1. Even though the prototype didn't have them, you could put crossovers in at the stub end of the station tracks for loco escape and to bring in a switcher to push them out.
2. Or you could put crossovers in at the coach yard that would do the same thing.
Both of these plans depend on how much you want to conform to the prototype. Since you sound like you are going to have to eliminate the balloon track because of a lack of room, putting in the crossovers seem like a good option to me.
Elmer.
The above is my opinion, from an active and experienced Model Railroader in N scale and HO since 1961.
(Modeling Freelance, Eastern US, HO scale, in 1962, with NCE DCC for locomotive control and a stand alone LocoNet for block detection and signals.) http://waynes-trains.com/ at home, and N scale at the Club.
gandydancer19 1. Even though the prototype didn't have them, you could put crossovers in at the stub end of the station tracks for loco escape and to bring in a switcher to push them out. 2. Or you could put crossovers in at the coach yard that would do the same thing. Both of these plans depend on how much you want to conform to the prototype. Since you sound like you are going to have to eliminate the balloon track because of a lack of room, putting in the crossovers seem like a good option to me.
Thanks, Elmer, for those comments. I have thought about crossovers on the stub end tracks in the station or in the coach yard. But, crossovers really consume a lot of needed space.
I have thought about adding crossovers between the station and the yard along the mainline so that the switcher pulling the cars out of the station could uncouple and run around behind the string of cars and continue to the coach yard by pushing.
One thing that I could do, in lieu of a balloon track, is to add an escape track on the left side of the storage tracks in the coach yard as shown in the following diagram. That would seem prototypical to me. Any thoughts on such a track plan?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Rich, it is clear fro mthose track diagrams that the balloon track, yes that is the correct term there, is how all that was done at Dearborn. If you don't have room for the balloon track, think about how you could squeeze in a wye? And you could make the wye look like part of the prototype ballon track. Sheldon
Rich, it is clear fro mthose track diagrams that the balloon track, yes that is the correct term there, is how all that was done at Dearborn.
If you don't have room for the balloon track, think about how you could squeeze in a wye? And you could make the wye look like part of the prototype ballon track.
Sheldon, that is a great idea. Let me work on that one.
Hello Rich,
As you may know, Santa Fe trains normally headed into Dearborn and were pulled back out by switch engines after unloading, road engine and all. There are several color photos in Vol. 1 of Lloyd Stagner's book Santa Fe 1940-1971 In Color showing this. A red flag was placed in one of the flag holders on the lead (now trailing) unit of the road locomotive to mark the rear of the movement. Switchers also backed outbound trains into the station for loading, coupled onto the nose of the road power.
For more information, see the 2nd Quarter, 2000, issue of the Warbonnet magazine of the Santa Fe Ry. Historical & Modeling Society. The back issue is available at atsfrr.net for $11 to non-members or $9 to members.
So long,
Andy
Andy Sperandeo MODEL RAILROADER Magazine
Rich,Back in 64 and 65 I visited the Cincinnati Union Terminal once a month and seen passenger trains shoved to the station tracks by CUT switchers and I also seen them pulled into the station tracks.
Why the difference?
Glad you ask.
It all depended on which way the passenger train was headed..Trains headed South was pulled into the station tracks while Northbound trains was shoved.I asked a brakeman and IIRC this was the preferred method since it saved unnecessary moves..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE Rich,Back in 64 and 65 I visited the Cincinnati Union Terminal once a month and seen passenger trains shoved to the station tracks by CUT switchers and I also seen them pulled into the station tracks. Why the difference? Glad you ask. It all depended on which way the passenger train was headed..Trains headed South was pulled into the station tracks while Northbound trains was shoved.I asked a brakeman and IIRC this was the preferred method since it saved unnecessary moves..
Brakie, thanks for that info. It sounds like CUT was a thru track station, so I looked it up to confirm it.
Sperandeo Hello Rich, As you may know, Santa Fe trains normally headed into Dearborn and were pulled back out by switch engines after unloading, road engine and all. There are several color photos in Vol. 1 of Lloyd Stagner's book Santa Fe 1940-1971 In Color showing this. A red flag was placed in one of the flag holders on the lead (now trailing) unit of the road locomotive to mark the rear of the movement. Switchers also backed outbound trains into the station for loading, coupled onto the nose of the road power. For more information, see the 2nd Quarter, 2000, issue of the Warbonnet magazine of the Santa Fe Ry. Historical & Modeling Society. The back issue is available at atsfrr.net for $11 to non-members or $9 to members. So long, Andy
Andy, thanks for that reply.
I don't have the Lloyd Stagner book, but I do have the 2nd Quarter issue of the Warbonnet magazine. After reading your comments, I went back and re-read the article on Dearborn Station. The text of the article does not get into any detail about the coach yard operations, but the captions under the various photos confirm your explanation of these movements.
The cover of the magazine, itself, shows a switcher preparing to pull the inbound san Francisco Chief back to the 18th Street coach yard.
Another photo shows a 0-8-0 pulling a string of cars out of the station to the coach yard. The 0-8-0 is moving in reverse to pull the cars down to the 18th Street coach yard. In a companion photo, the same 0-8-0 is moving forward pushing a string of cars into Dearborn Station.
Yet another photo shows a GP20 backing an entire train, locomotives and passenger cars into Dearborn Station from the coach yard.
I always assumed that the switchers pulled the passenger cars from Dearborn Station to the coach yard and then pushed the cleaned and serviced cars back to Dearborn Station from the coach yard. But, I had no idea that the switchers also pushed and pulled the locomotives into and out of Dearborn Station.
That was apparently not always the case though. I have a slide show on a DVD consisting of a series of photographs that include photos of Santa Fe FY engines and consists moving independently of their passenger cars to and from Dearborn Station. The coach yard at 18th Street included a roundhouse, turntable, and engine servicing facility.
This is all very fascinating to me as I contemplate the possibility of building this layout.
Without the balloon track you are going to need a way to turn your observation cars.
Bill
BAmos Rich Without the balloon track you are going to need a way to turn your observation cars. Bill
Good point, Bill. I have thought about that. The prototype had a turntable in the coach yard, and I am assuming that observation cars were turned in that manner.
But that raises the question: did railroads use turntables to turn around observation cars?
Without a balloon track, how were observation cars turned around?
Hi Rich,
I'm with the Chinese American Museum of Chicago. We are working on a centennial exhibit, and were looking for pictures, maps, etc. of the Sante Fe passenger coach yard and/or Fred Harvey Commissary at 21st and Wentworth. It seems that your map has a nice detail of the yard that is of interest. In 1986 or so, the Sante Fe yard was sold to a development group which put in residences and a strip mall. The coach yard, the master mechanics office, and the division storekeeper department are now gone, although the Alton junction at 21st St. is still active and so is the liftbridge. They are best seen in the park on the bank of the Chicago River. The commissary building has become an office and retail space.
Is it possible for us to use your map of the railroad yard for our exhibit? It would help tell the story of how the railroads shaped the area around Chinatown.
Hope to hear from you soon.
Best,
Rich Jung
trainrfun Is it possible for us to use your map of the railroad yard for our exhibit? It would help tell the story of how the railroads shaped the area around Chinatown.
Rich, I sent you a message which you can find by clicking on the Conversations link in the upper right portion of your computer screen.
RICH: This won't help much but I KNOW I saw a yard photo somewhere, of an observation car being turned on a TT. .....papasmurf
papasmurf RICH: This won't help much but I KNOW I saw a yard photo somewhere, of an observation car being turned on a TT. .....papasmurf
C'mon, papasmurf, you can do better than that ! LOL