the application of the letter "F" to an end of a double-cab locomotive began long before diesel locomotives were developed, on the first mainline electrics. they were weird ariculated steeple-cabs on the B&O in the tunnels at baltimore, and one day a hogger thought he was going to go forward but went backwards instead when the units were new, about 1894. that's when the ICC mandated the F be painted on. it affects the design of multiple-unit connections too. -arturo
wjstixp.s. IIRC CN and subsidiaries did something similar, using LF RF RR LR on the four corners of a diesel to indicate Left Front, Right Front, Right Rear, Left Rear....or something like that anyway.
This is correct, except it was FR, FL, RR, RL instead of RF, LF, etc.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
Well the NYC stopped adding 1 and 2 and A and B to the engines around 1963. I think the last new engines to come with them were the GP-30s in 1962. I don't think the extra minute or two to have someone in the paint shop add the lettering (either in NYC's own shops, or at the builder) was enough of an expense to make the railroad go be driven to bankruptcy.
Remember too that NYC didn't go bankrupt - it was Penn Central, after the disasterous merger with the PRR, that went bankrupt.
p.s. IIRC CN and subsidiaries did something similar, using LF RF RR LR on the four corners of a diesel to indicate Left Front, Right Front, Right Rear, Left Rear....or something like that anyway.
The only thing the fallen flag had to do with it is that perhaps they could have operated another hour if they hadn't spent that money all those years lettering all the A,B and 2s, because if you had the FRA directed F you didn't really need the others as most people could then tell the left from the right. I have seen those ex C&O geeps, as well as those GE electrics they ran through the DRT. It was a very interesting area, and fortunatly I grew up in Toledo, so trips up to the MC railroad station, and across the Ambassador bridge to Windsor occured several times a year. My father worked for the C&O, with my Grandfather and other relatives working for the NYC. I was always told that one of the GE electrics that ran through the DRT went to the Toledo Edison at their Front Street Plant, but my research would indicate otherwise.
Paul
Dayton and Mad River RR
train18393 The NYC went even farther and labeled the front, back and which side of the engine is which. So they had the F and a 1 at the front, a 2 at the rear, and an A & B for left and right. I doubt they would go to that expense if they were not a Fallen Flag railroad.
The NYC went even farther and labeled the front, back and which side of the engine is which. So they had the F and a 1 at the front, a 2 at the rear, and an A & B for left and right. I doubt they would go to that expense if they were not a Fallen Flag railroad.
Not sure what being a "fallen flag" had to do with anything, but NYC did use the 1 and 2 designation as far back as the 1920's with their first boxcab diesels. I suspect it may go back farther than the requirement for the "F" designation on the front, perhaps back to their c.1906 electric locomotives??
p.s. NYC GP's ran long hood forward except they had some high hood ex-C&O GP-7 (or -9?) units built by GMD in Canada that they left as short-hood forward units.
The engineer sits on the right side of the cab whe the loco is running forward. Alcos, and Baldwin road switchers were built by the factory with the lomg hood forward, by default. GP7s were built with the short hood forward. If the loco was running backward the engineer was on the wrong side of the cab to see signals, whistle posts, etc., and needed another employee to ride the cab to call signals for him. If the customer so desired the locos could be built with the other end forward. Sometimes the cab had to be physically turned around (RS1). Changing the front required other changes, like using different wiring harnesses to reach the control stand. The Seminole Gulf in Florida just disposed of the last of their long-hood front GP9s because repair parts were hard to come by. Some roads, the Jersey Central was one, had locos (GP7s and GP40Ps) built with two control stands, so the engineer sat on the right side no matter which direction the loco was operating. GG1s had two control stands, so the engineer was always on the right side. AEM7s are the same. If you look at photos of GG1 roofs, there was a vent pipe over the cab. It was along the center line but off-center toward one end. That vent was on the front end. Thats the only way I know to tell front from rear. The fuel filler might be an indicator from the ground. (They burned diesel fuel yo generate steam, so they could still heat the train in a power failure). How does one tell the front of a GG1? Look for the F. It was their to identify the front, for maintenance purposes. it allowed the identification of left from right, and allowed the axles and wheels to be numbered for identification. If an axle bearing, for example, goes bad it iis reported as L3...Left side, #3. The front of the loco also matters when telling the engineer to move forward, or go back, either by radio or hand sign.
How the engines are operated is a little different issue than what was considered the front of course.
Many railroads designate the long hood of a typical end-cab switcher as the front, but when operating together choose to run them nose-to-nose rather than back-to-back. I presume this is because of the greater visibility available out the back of the cab when switching.
The CB&Q was noted in the St.Paul area for running transfer jobs using three end-cab GM diesels all running "elephant style" (nose to trunk, i.e. all facing "forward"). Seems like Amtrak also likes the engines to all face forward more often than not (perhaps as someone mentioned, so that if the lead engine fails they can more easily use a trailing engine to run the train from.)
NOT SO. GREAT NORTHERN FOR ONE RAN LONF HOOD AS FRONT.
I think the law requiring the F on the front is to stop people asking which side it is on.
Springfield PA
wjstix Keep in mind that although railroads try to set up an m.u. consist of engines in such a way that the lead engine is facing "forward", it doesn't matter what direction any trailing engines are facing. If engines are often used together in a set, the railroad will try to set them up so that if it's two engines, they're back to back, or if more than two, that the two engines on the ends are facing away from each other.
Keep in mind that although railroads try to set up an m.u. consist of engines in such a way that the lead engine is facing "forward", it doesn't matter what direction any trailing engines are facing. If engines are often used together in a set, the railroad will try to set them up so that if it's two engines, they're back to back, or if more than two, that the two engines on the ends are facing away from each other.
The directions of engines in a consist can be driven by many things. If the power set doesn't turn, then the direction of the trailing units is immaterial. On premium trains (such as piggybacks) the units may be facing forwards so if the leader fails they will have another leader to minimize delay. If the consist "splits" the engine at the split will be facing forwards
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
BATMAN TA462: Didn't CP run their Trainmasters in both directions? I was told by so called experts on more than one occasion that CP Trainmasters only ran long nose first. I didn't care and ran my two short snout first most of the time. It put a smile on my face when my sister gave me a really beautiful book on the Canadian Pacific that showed C.P. Trainmasters being run both ways in several different pictures.
TA462: Didn't CP run their Trainmasters in both directions?
Didn't CP run their Trainmasters in both directions?
I was told by so called experts on more than one occasion that CP Trainmasters only ran long nose first. I didn't care and ran my two short snout first most of the time. It put a smile on my face when my sister gave me a really beautiful book on the Canadian Pacific that showed C.P. Trainmasters being run both ways in several different pictures.
IIRC CP's TrainMasters _were_ originally set up with the long hood as the front. (That doesn't mean they couldn't be run backwards). However, they were also changed later in life to have the short hood forward. Note that CP's paint scheme always had the grey at the front end of the locomotive:
http://trainweb.org/galt-stn/cproster/locomotive/8900s/cp8900.htm
There was a lot of variation. Most CP GP9s were short hood forward; RS18s were short hood forward, RS10s, RS2s, and RS3s were long hood forward.
Keep in mind that although railroads try to set up an m.u. consist of engines in such a way that the lead engine is facing "forward", it doesn't matter what direction any trailing engines are facing. If engines are often used together in a set, the railroad will try to set them up so that if it's two engines, they're back to back, or if more than two, that the two engines on the ends are facing away from each other. That way, they can operate in either direction with whichever engine is in the lead facing forward. That's part of why early F units were normally bought and operated by railroads in A-B-A or A-B-B-A sets, with the A units facing away from each other.
jrbernier On 'dual control' engines, there is still an 'F' painted on the frame. The CB&Q had lots of GP7/9's and SD7/9's with dual controls. They all had a small 'F' on the frame up by the 'short' hood. BTW, EMD built their engines with the 'short' hood as the front by default. A railroad could have the controls set up either way. The NYC and GN both had lots of EMD GP's set up that way. Alco built their 'RS' line of units with the 'long' hood as the default 'front. The Milwaukee road ordered RSC-2 engines set up with the 'long hood' forward, and later orders for RS-3 and RSD-5 engines came delivered with the 'short' hood forward!. Jim
On 'dual control' engines, there is still an 'F' painted on the frame. The CB&Q had lots of GP7/9's and SD7/9's with dual controls. They all had a small 'F' on the frame up by the 'short' hood.
BTW, EMD built their engines with the 'short' hood as the front by default. A railroad could have the controls set up either way. The NYC and GN both had lots of EMD GP's set up that way. Alco built their 'RS' line of units with the 'long' hood as the default 'front. The Milwaukee road ordered RSC-2 engines set up with the 'long hood' forward, and later orders for RS-3 and RSD-5 engines came delivered with the 'short' hood forward!.
Jim
TA462 Didn't CP run their Trainmasters in both directions?
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
the earliest road switchers, the Alcos and the Baldwins, had the long hood forward. subsequently, railroads began ordering them the other way around. EMD Geeps were short hood forward allthough they could be ordered the other way. End-cab switcher units had the long hood forward.
A and B Baldwin AS-616 units:
dehusman An "F" on the front of an engine is required by Federal Law, so all diesels have them. The former CNW line from Chicago to Missouri Valley, IA is still left hand running, but use, and have always used standard engine cab layouts. Deisel engines operate equally well in either direction so it is entirely up to the railroad buying the engines, which end they designate as front and some have changed over the years with some units delivered short hood front and some long hood front. The front of a dual control engine is the end with the F on it.
An "F" on the front of an engine is required by Federal Law, so all diesels have them. The former CNW line from Chicago to Missouri Valley, IA is still left hand running, but use, and have always used standard engine cab layouts. Deisel engines operate equally well in either direction so it is entirely up to the railroad buying the engines, which end they designate as front and some have changed over the years with some units delivered short hood front and some long hood front.
The front of a dual control engine is the end with the F on it.
Dave, you really need to get out of Omaha more often. Except for (I think) around the Chicago terminal area, the ex-CNW has been converted to CTC. No more left handed current of traffic. You can still see trains running left handed, but they can, and do, run on either track.
Jeff
Cab less B units also had an F. They were also equipped with Hostler stands. That way a B unit could be moved without towing for service and setting up consists.While moving a cab less loco the Hostler needed a ground man or two for guidance.
Most early diesels ran long hood forward for a couple reasons.
1. All that iron out front made the crew feel safer while out on the road. With the cab in the rear they had better visibility for switching operations.
2. Most of the engineers switched over from steam and was used to the limited visibility.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
Hennsallvanian Which end is the front on a double cab loco like a GG1 or AEM-7 and how are the controls set up.
Which end is the front on a double cab loco like a GG1 or AEM-7 and how are the controls set up.
The front of any non-steam locomotive is the end with the F on it. Only one end is the front. Forward or backward may be in relationship to which end the engineer is operating from, but the front of the locomotive is fixed.
The reason for the F originated with the boxcab and other double ended engines.
If you drive a GG1 from the front cab out of, say, Penn Central in New York towards Newark you would press forward and go west. But if you went into the 'back' cab and pressed forward would you still go west as in the front cab or would it now go east .
In the UK the controls are set up so that in this case forward would mean west in the front and east in the back cab. My father-in-law got this wrong in a British Railways class 40
He drove into a double ended track and stopped. To reverse the whole train into the siding at the rear end of the loop he went into the back cab (for a better view and selected reverse) This took him forward (in relation to the train) and onto the derail protecting the main line. A costly error.
One reason railroads liked diesels is that they could operate (well, except for F units and the like) easily well in both directions. Many of the first road switchers were bought for branchline work, because by using diesels the railroad could eliminate a turntable at the end of the line (although steam engines running in reverse is more common than you might think.)
It was entirely up to the railroad which end was the front, or more accurately, where they wanted the engineer's controls in the cab of the diesel. Externally a diesel like a GP-7 or RS-3 would look the same regardless for the most part - I suppose a few railroads had unusual headlights that only went on the front for example, and many put the airhorn so that it was facing the front.
Railroads weren't always consistent. Some railroads ran high nose GPs short-nose forward, but RS-3s long hood forward. IIRC NYC GPs ran long hood forward (until they got low-nose engines like GP-30s) but their subsidiary Canada Southern had some GPs that ran short hood forward.
Note that when low-nose diesels came along, all but a very few railroads switched to use the short end as the front, if they didn't already do so.
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I think a lot of the early EMD road switchers were also built for long end forward operation.
Dan
Alco RS units were built with the long hood forward, EMDs with the short hood forward. I dont know about other builders. Any loco could be built the other way if the owner wished.
Very few engines have dual controls. That being said a pretty good basic rule is the short hood end is the front.
I know the end with the F is the front, and marked as such,(as required by the FRA or whichever the governing body was called during a paticular era), but which end was the front in an engine with dual controls. The NYC always had the long hood forward in the first generation engines, but could the railroad choose whichever end they wanted to call front. I also know that a few railroads used left handed running, so would that further complicate matters?
Is there any railroads currently using left hand running? Just some random thoughts, not important as nearly all of my locomotives are detailed as per the road number of the prototype, and I have not run across any NYC engines with dual controls, as long as you don't count the hostler controls in the rear of a covered wagon. The NYC went even farther and labeled the front, back and which side of the engine is which. So they had the F and a 1 at the front, a 2 at the rear, and an A & B for left and right. I doubt they would go to that expense if they were not a Fallen Flag railroad.