It would depend too on whether it was a mainline freight moving 100 cars from city A to city B, or a wayfreight dropping off and picking up cars. On a wayfreight, the cars were normally blocked in the order they would be set out. The cars for industry 1 might be right behind the engine, the cars for industry 2 next etc. Of course depending on local situations it might work differently...the cars for industry 1 might be at the end of the train if they needed to get the train clear of a road crossing located near the industry for example.
V&A C-628 ATLANTIC CENTRAL: Another note about the era the OP asked about. From its beginings in the late 40's and well into the 60's, piggyback cars in mixed trains where usually at the head end and grouped together for fast shifting to their special unloading/loading facility. There are many pictures of steam powerd trains in the 50's with 5-10 piggyback flats directly behind the loco. Piggyback and steam, not two things many people think of together, but there was nearly a decade of overlap in their respective eras. Sheldon Did this even apply during the late 60s and early 70s?
ATLANTIC CENTRAL: Another note about the era the OP asked about. From its beginings in the late 40's and well into the 60's, piggyback cars in mixed trains where usually at the head end and grouped together for fast shifting to their special unloading/loading facility. There are many pictures of steam powerd trains in the 50's with 5-10 piggyback flats directly behind the loco. Piggyback and steam, not two things many people think of together, but there was nearly a decade of overlap in their respective eras. Sheldon
Another note about the era the OP asked about. From its beginings in the late 40's and well into the 60's, piggyback cars in mixed trains where usually at the head end and grouped together for fast shifting to their special unloading/loading facility.
There are many pictures of steam powerd trains in the 50's with 5-10 piggyback flats directly behind the loco.
Piggyback and steam, not two things many people think of together, but there was nearly a decade of overlap in their respective eras.
Sheldon
Did this even apply during the late 60s and early 70s?
By the late 60's more and more piggyback service was run as unit trains, but yes, some piggyback cars could still be seen at the head end of mixed trains.
Dave:A block on a typical train is 20 or thirty cars.
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Dave,A block can 1-100 cars since there is no typical block(unless that changed from my railroadin' days) since that depends on several things to include the day of the week.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
AltonFan dehusman: Cars of radioactive, high explosives, and poison or toxic gas can 't be next to other placarded loads (except combustible) But say you had multiple cars in one train carrying one of these, and going to the same destination. Could these cars remain together, or would they have to be separated?
dehusman: Cars of radioactive, high explosives, and poison or toxic gas can 't be next to other placarded loads (except combustible)
Cars of radioactive, high explosives, and poison or toxic gas can 't be next to other placarded loads (except combustible)
Yes they could remain together and yes they would have to be separated.
A block on a typical train is 20 or thirty cars. So if you have a toxic car or an explosive scattered in the block, they can be separated to comply with the hazmat instructions and still travel together in the same block. If you have a mix where you can't make cover in the block then the cover comes first and the blocking comes second.
On a second reading of your question, you might be asking if you have multiple cars of the same placard type, can they be together, the answer is yes.
Hazmat placards are divided into five general types, the non-restricted (combustible and low grade explosives), the "regular" (flammable, oxidizers, corrosives, non-flammable, medium explosives), radiioactive, toxic or poisonous gases, and high explosives. Cars in any one category can be mixed with any other cars in the same category, but cars in any restricted category cannot be next to cars in another restricted category.
So a restricted car of Ammonium Nitrate (placarded Oxidizer) can be legally separated from a carload of LPG (placarded flammable gas) by a car of fuel oil (placarded combustible) and a car of poison gas (placarded inhalation hazard on a square white background) can be separated from a car of high explosives (placarded explosives 1.1) by a car of molten sulphur (placarded HOT). However a boxcar placarded radioactive cannot separate a boxcar of explosives 1.4 ("regular" hazmat) and a piggyback of explosives 1.2 (high explosives).
Clear as mud, eh?
Dave H.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Another note about the era the OP asked about. From its beginings in the late 40's and well into the 60's, piggyback cars in mixed trains where usually at the head end and grouped together for fast shifting to their special unloading/loading facility. There are many pictures of steam powerd trains in the 50's with 5-10 piggyback flats directly behind the loco. Piggyback and steam, not two things many people think of together, but there was nearly a decade of overlap in their respective eras. Sheldon
Freelancer with an interest in N&W, SCL, and other 70s railroads
dehusman Cars of radioactive, high explosives, and poison or toxic gas can 't be next to other placarded loads (except combustible)
Dan
Thank you to all of you for this information. A couple of you referred to Special Instructions which prompted me to look at something already under my nose. (That nose is on the same face that has a little egg on it now). I have a few copies of Special Instruction booklets for the Northern Pacific and Burlington Northern in the 1960's and 70's. There are specific instructions for weight, placement, speed, etc. for cars hauling logs, Multi-Level cars hauling automobiles, Trailer on Flat Cars (piggy-back), Woodchip cars, Tank cars, etc. It does appear that many these instructions are railroad specific, at least 40+ years ago. More recently, these rules may be mandated by Federal regulations making them applicable to all railroads as was previously mentioned. Thanks again.
The placement of hazardous materials in trains is minimally set by the Federal government so it will be basically consistent between all railroads. The railroads may impose stricter rules, but the basic stuff is the same nationwide.
Restrictions aren't placed on "tank cars" they are placed on cars containing hazmat. The car may have different restrictions because it is a tank car, but the reason it has restrictions is because of the commodity NOT because of the car type.
A tank car of corn syrup is just another car because cornsyrup isn't a hazmat.
A tank car of fuel oil is placarded combustible and that is considered just another car.
A tank car of gasoline is flammable liquid that has restrictions on it.
A tank car of chlorine gas is a toxic inhalation hazard car and has even has more restrictions on it.
Brian In Arkansas In the early 70's, my Uncle who was an engineer for the C&NW gave me a copy of a book they were required to carry with them while on duty - and I wished I still had it... but the one thing I remember reading was that any tank car had to be 5 cars back from eith the engine or caboose.
In the early 70's, my Uncle who was an engineer for the C&NW gave me a copy of a book they were required to carry with them while on duty - and I wished I still had it... but the one thing I remember reading was that any tank car had to be 5 cars back from eith the engine or caboose.
Again depending on railroad SOP..
BTW..90% of the time we carried our rule book in our grip next to our ETT and we seldom had the need to check either..
Any non hazardous tank car could be placed behind the locomotive as it is today on the 2 roads I worked for-the PRR and C&O/Chessie.
Exactly, even on the same railroad the requirements can very from on end of a yard to the other, trains eastbound from a yard might be subject to different restrictions than trains westbound from the same yard.
Another practice that differs from RR to RR is placement of cabooses. There are lots of examples of trains with a caboose or engine on both ends of the train (particularly locals). Some railroads don't permit this. For example the 1998 UP special instructions says cabooses should be moved only at the rear of trains unless the train has less than 20 cars and less than 2500 tons (and specifically allows the dispatch office to exempt trains from this restriction).
Dave,You are correct and it does vary from era to era..I seen loaded pipes directly behind the training unit of a 3 unit consist..I saw a picture of a L&N 2-8-0 on a branch line mixed and the only car was a load of telephone poles between the locomotive and combine and seen a 1970/71 picture of a PC GP7 trailing 3 flat cars(not bulkheads) of lumber and the cabin..
I spend a lot of hours track side and have seen empty 60' flatcars directly behind the engines on NS and CSX.I recall seeing the same on CR.
As a example:The first 10-12 cars was empty coil cars those was followed by a mix bag of freight cars.
I recall seeing empty front runners on intermodal trains behind the the engines.
However..
That was on short 30-40 car intermodal trains.
As most have eluded during that time frame (the 60's) roads varied the rules significantly in the order they were placed.
What has been listed so far is good.
I remember reading in print that heavy cars (loaded) were generally placed ahead of empty or light cars. This is to reduce the effect of clothes-lining around a curve.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
BRAKIE As far as flat cars with expose loads they could be behind the locomotive(s). The empty cars would be in their proper destination block to include behind the locomotive(s)
As far as flat cars with expose loads they could be behind the locomotive(s).
The empty cars would be in their proper destination block to include behind the locomotive(s)
The handling of shiftable loads depends upon the road and era. On the railroads I have worked for its against the rules to put a shiftable load next to the engine or a caboose. For example in the July 1983 MP timetable special instruction Item 3-h, Shipments requiring close attention, it says that an open top car loaded above the top chord or beyodn the sides with a load that might shift may not be placed ahead of an occupied caboose or behind an occupied locomotive.
The placement of empties is also railroad, era, car type and are location specific.
For example the Reading railroad on the branch I model, in 1966 the special instructions say that a train can't have an empty car within the head 16 cars of a train between Joanna and Birdsboro (the ruling grade, downhill). On other branches with even steeper hills, the special instructions are more restrictive, limiting empties to the rear of the train.
On modern railroads there are restrictions of especially long cars and especially short cars, which can vary by era, car type and location specific. For example on the UP in 1998 TTOX 2 axle intermodal cars could only be in the rear 2500 tons of an intermodal train or had to be on the rear of a regular train. West of El Paso, Denver and North Platte a multi-platform intermodal car with an empty well could only have 4500 tons or less behind it.
np63 I'm modeling the 1960's (pre-merger era) and am wondering if there is a particular sequence freight cars were placed behind the locomotive. For example, I recall reading that in the steam era refrigerator cars were placed closer to the front of the train so they could more easily be removed along the route to have the ice replaced. Was any consideration given for tank cars hauling flammable liquids? Or flat cars with exposed loads? Thank you for any information you can share.
I'm modeling the 1960's (pre-merger era) and am wondering if there is a particular sequence freight cars were placed behind the locomotive. For example, I recall reading that in the steam era refrigerator cars were placed closer to the front of the train so they could more easily be removed along the route to have the ice replaced. Was any consideration given for tank cars hauling flammable liquids? Or flat cars with exposed loads? Thank you for any information you can share.
Freight trains are classified in destination blocks with the hazmats in their proper block but, away from the engine and caboose crew.Usually reefers was place in a reefer train if not then the ice bunkers was placed at front while mechanical reefers was in their proper destination block..As far as flat cars with expose loads they could be behind the locomotive(s).
dave, you are so right. when i started out, placards read "dangerous" and you had to read the waybill to find out what the commodity was.
grizlump
grizlump9 it's been a long time but i think most of the restrictions were based on federal laws and did not vary from road to road.
it's been a long time but i think most of the restrictions were based on federal laws and did not vary from road to road.
Hazmat restrictions are Federal. Most of the rest is set by individual railroad. Don't feel bad if they are fuzzy, they are some of the most complicated regulations the train crews have to deal with. On some roads the hazmat rules test is open book because of all the charts and graphs required.
i think combustible loads and flammable empties required 1 car of cover while flammable loads required 5.
Combustible loads have no restrictions and can be used as cover cars themselves.
Flammable loads require cars of cover. Flammable empties require 1 car of cover.
open loads that could shift could not run next to occupied cabooses or locomotives.
on rare occasion we would receive a car tagged "rear end only" that had to run in the rear 10 cars of the trains because of weak condition of the underframe or draft gear.
i think combustible loads and flammable empties required 1 car of cover while flammable loads required 5. open loads that could shift could not run next to occupied cabooses or locomotives.
open loads could not run next to flammable loads. nor could flammable loads run next to cars equipped with heaters or mechanical refrigeration units.
particularly obnoxious loads such as hides, tankage, or manure were run as close to or as far from the caboose as was appropriate, depending on how big a jerk the road conductor was. (no federal law involved in that)
Certain cars might be on the head end such as stock or refrigerator cars. Blocks of heavy loads might be on the head end and blocks of empties towards the rear on more mountainous territories. Shiftable loads generally weren't next to the engine or occupied caboose.
Cars placarded flamable or dangerous couldn't be next to an engine or caboose (not sure how far away one car or 5 cars in the 1960's) . A car placarded combustible could be next to an engine or caboose.
Other than that, cars were pretty much switched by destination, so cars going to the same town, switch yard or interchange would be together in the train.
Thank you - np63
np63 Sorry - I posted this question twice. How do I delete one of them? np63
Sorry - I posted this question twice. How do I delete one of them? np63
You can't delete it but you can edit the content to say Opps double post. and lock it.
Springfield PA
Even in your era railroads had rules for flamable tank cars and explosive ladden cars and they were placed a certain minimum number of cars behind the engine or caboose IF POSSIBLE. Those things are usually spelled out in the employee time table or book of rules.