The B&O required that the conductor handle the switch when running switches were made from or to a main track, except that the conductor could have a trainman handle the switch on a local freight.
Usually it was best to let the engine run into the siding and throw the cars onto the main, as that usually gave more room to get the cars stopped. Sometimes they wouldn't try to stop the cars. but would just catch up to them with the engine.
Anytime a hand brake is going to be used to stop a moving car it is a VERY good idea to test the brake first.
Also: do not forget the derail if there's one involved.
wabash2800 I based what I wrote on what real railroader friends from the steam era have told me including a 95 year old retired Wabash conductor. My point about danger is not that it wasn't a dangerous occupation but smart guys wouldn't go out of there way and take unneccesary chances or make things complicated. Without radios it was a different world. But still, they did do things that are not allowed now. I have some movie footage of a flying switch move they did in the late 50s with not one, but two cars.
I based what I wrote on what real railroader friends from the steam era have told me including a 95 year old retired Wabash conductor. My point about danger is not that it wasn't a dangerous occupation but smart guys wouldn't go out of there way and take unneccesary chances or make things complicated. Without radios it was a different world. But still, they did do things that are not allowed now. I have some movie footage of a flying switch move they did in the late 50s with not one, but two cars.
I don't doubt your friend for one mintue since conductors varied from run to run some was by the book while others would make a high risk move to save time.It was enough to drive a extra board brakeman nuts.
I watched a crew several weeks ago execute a text book flying switch with 4 covered hoppers..Smooth very smooth.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
However, I will assert that Clarence's local crew did flying switch manuevers all the time. One time somethng did go wrong. They were switching the lumber yard/team track at Millersburg, Indiana and had a car to drop. The switch being in the wrong direction, they did a flying switch manuever. Clarence was riding the car on the brake platform and the brakemen on the ground did not throw the switch. The engineer was having an off day and did not give the guy on the ground enough distance btw the loco and the car to throw the switch before the car rolled by. Consequently the car rolled on by and crashed into the engine. It knocked the wind out of Clarence but he managed to stay on the car. The engineer made the mistake and the ground man was wise not to throw the switch under the car...
I made some days ago a comment about switching with a one person crew using remote control but forgot the reference. It was this small youtube video of the PHL
Reinhard
Years ago, the B&O required conductors to "exercise good judgement in making running or flying switches". I guess if anything went wrong he wasn't using good judgement.
Once in a while a new man would freeze at the switch as the cars bore down at him and they would follow the engine into the spur, so the engine crew had to watch out for that.
One thing they really didn't want to have happen is to have the switch points halfway thrown when the cars got there.
wabash2800:
Therefore, not switching on the front end or switching way back in the train, or the train being on a blind curve, would make this almost impossible, challenging or possibly dangerous. To be sure, two crew members could relay sigals to each other and on to the engineer, but they wouldn't make it more difficult then they had to. It also was safer when the engineer could see the crew members.
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First railroading was not for the weak kneed or faint of heart..What you call "dangerous" we called getting the job done.
Many a time I rode the top of boxcars to relay the other brakeman's hand signal to the conductor and he would would relay it to the engineer or fireman.This was while I was working on the PRR/PC(66-69).And no nobody like being perched on a roof walk of a swaying boxcar but,we had to do it..
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Also, occasionally with a "Turn" (a local train that runs from A to B and return to A from B the same day or the next day) crews might leave some cars to be switched for the return trip or spot them on another track (if they had to be moved) to pick them up on the way back.
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The majority of the conductors I worked with in my 9 1/2 years as a brakeman would frown on doing this and would only do this as a last resort...They would see that as doing unnecessary work and a local crew doesn't have the luxury time for such moves or work.
Most railroads frown on the "flying switch" since it was dangerous and could go horribly wrong.
However,they look the other way if all went well..If it didn't you had some explaining to do to the division superintendent..Been there/done that.
Another thing to consider if you model before the common use of radios (say before the late 50s, depending on the RR) is that train crew members on the ground (or riding the the cars on the side or the top) had to communicate by hand signals during the day and lanterns at night with the engineer. This would tell him when to stop, start, backup etc.
Also, occasionally with a "Turn" (a local train that runs from A to B and return to A from B the same day or the next day) crews might leave some cars to be switched for the return trip or spot them on another track (if they had to be moved) to pick them up on the way back. This is so they won't have to take them to the other end of the RR and bring them back again (on a branch, for example). There could be several reasons for that like having a tonnage limit on a grade up ahead on the line, the switches are not facing the right way and there isn't a siding to run around, or they just want to make the switching enroute less complicated. But some crews will make all the moves enroute from A to B regardless, so they have little or no work on the return trip from B to A.
I have friend that is 95 year old retired conductor and on his Turn, the crew wouldn't think twice about doing a "flying switch manuever" if the switch was pointed in the wrong direction and a run around track wasn't handy. The station agent/operators would telegraph or telephone the stations up ahead and tell them what work needed to be done at their station. Then messages would handed to the crew at the station or on the fly so the crew knew what needed to be done before they got to the station.
"Plus once in a while they'd run with a few cars behind the caboose if it speeded up switching...in fact, seems to me once or twice they even had cars in front of the engine!! "
I was watching a video with a buddy at his house one night, and since he models N&W.. the video was about that line back in the 40's. One real quick scene was a steam engine, could have been one of their class A's or could have been one of their smaller locos, pulling a mixed freight while pushing several cars. I can't remember if there was a caboose out in front of the engine or not. I need to borrow that film from him and watch it again as it was one of the best on the N&W I've seen.
wjstix Re operating sessions, keep in mind the real trains sometimes when working a branchline will tuck some cars away to work on the return trip. The line I grew up along they'd do that sometimes, leave some cars at a run-around track and then go north to switch those industries. Then they could pick up the cars they left behind and switch them out on the way back. Plus once in a while they'd run with a few cars behind the caboose if it speeded up switching...in fact, seems to me once or twice they even had cars in front of the engine!! But again this is a very low speed dead-end branchline.
Re operating sessions, keep in mind the real trains sometimes when working a branchline will tuck some cars away to work on the return trip. The line I grew up along they'd do that sometimes, leave some cars at a run-around track and then go north to switch those industries. Then they could pick up the cars they left behind and switch them out on the way back. Plus once in a while they'd run with a few cars behind the caboose if it speeded up switching...in fact, seems to me once or twice they even had cars in front of the engine!! But again this is a very low speed dead-end branchline.
From local freights on a couple of eastern roads back in the "caboose era".
If a yard crew was on duty at the initial terminal they would make up the train, blocking the cars for each station together but not necessarily in any particular order except to position special placement cars (dangerous cars, scale test cars, etc.) properly.
Once the train got out of the yard it was up to the conductor how to set up the work. As has been noted in other posts sometimes there was a good location along the way to shift out the train to make things easier. Sometimes not...
If there were facing point spurs to be worked and a runaround wasn't nearby, they might shove the cars ahead of the engine or else swing the cars by the engine (often called a flying switch). If the grades worked out they might use gravity to drop the cars downhill past the engine.
Other than cars requiring special placement it didn't matter what order the cars were in coming in to the final terminal, as the train was going to be classified anyway.
Local freight paid a couple dollars a day more than through freight, but a lot of conductors tried to stay away from the locals because of all the work (and aggravation) involved.
1- Would the crew pick up cars (from industries) and place them on the front or the rear of their train?
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Absolutely.Why do unnecessary work? However,there is a price to be paid..sooner or later you will need to rearrange your train into working order.
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2- Are the cars that they are setting out always right behind the locomotive?
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Not always most conductors would want their facing point or return setouts on the rear of the train.
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3- Are there variations from one railroad to another in their rules concerning this?
All railroads have similar rules.
4- Have things changed, concerning setting out and picking up cars, from steam engine/caboose days to today's method of doing things?
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From my observation of today's locals the 3 men crew does the same basic job but,differently then we would have with 3 men and a caboose.
So far only some transit "trains" (light rail vehicles) have one person crews.
Radio controlled jobs I have seen are normally a conductor and a brakeman.
The only one man RCL jobs might be in an industrial application or some non-union shortline or switching contractor, they certainly aren't on a unionized Class 1, regional or shortline.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
faraway Is the crew stripped down to one (the engineer only) if the engine is remote controlled? On youtube are some videos that look like the engineer has the remote control in front and watches the engine coupling on a car. Is that a procedure used at yards only or do they "send out" a one man crew to serve industries too?
Is the crew stripped down to one (the engineer only) if the engine is remote controlled? On youtube are some videos that look like the engineer has the remote control in front and watches the engine coupling on a car.
Is that a procedure used at yards only or do they "send out" a one man crew to serve industries too?
As far has 1 man crew on a local I haven't seen that yet-NS and C&FE still uses 3 men crews.
For what's it worth I am told by a highly reliable source that there is a average of 4 sideswipes a week in the Bellevue yard from where the belly pack operators can not see his locomotive..
jacon12 So...., it's the conductor that makes up a train and not the yard crew? Anyone? Jarrell
So...., it's the conductor that makes up a train and not the yard crew? Anyone?
Jarrell
Jarrell,There are union work rules that would forbid this since you are talking about 2 different job classes and job qualifications..I doubt a road conductor knows any yard tracks beyond the arrival and departure tracks..
However,the yard conductors would know how conductor Willy likes his train built and would build it in that order as a courtesy since there is no company or union work rules stating cars has to be blocked according to the local conductor.
If there was a yard conductor that didn't like Willie well just to bad about any courtesy blocking.
Dave, thanks for letting me in on the 'secret'! I noticed one of the more experienced guys in our ops session using a passing siding to rearrange some cars for some upcoming setouts. He was using the time that he had to wait for an opposing train to finishing working a spur he had to get by. Made his job a lot easier on down the track.
dehusman In a yard the yard crew makes up the train. When not in a yard the conductor makes up the train. I will let you in on a little secret. Railroad employees are allowed to talk to each other. Even though the yard crew makes up the train it will not break any rule if the conductor talks to the switch foreman and tells him he would like the Johnsonville cars on the rear the switch foreman will put the Johnsonville cars on the rear. Once they leave the yard the conductor can arrange his work and put the cars anyplace he wants in the train in order to do his work.
In a yard the yard crew makes up the train. When not in a yard the conductor makes up the train.
I will let you in on a little secret.
Railroad employees are allowed to talk to each other.
Even though the yard crew makes up the train it will not break any rule if the conductor talks to the switch foreman and tells him he would like the Johnsonville cars on the rear the switch foreman will put the Johnsonville cars on the rear.
Once they leave the yard the conductor can arrange his work and put the cars anyplace he wants in the train in order to do his work.
Flashwave So if I understand right, you only need to do a walking insepection on the cars you;ve picked up then? The rest of the train relies on the terminal and (if there even is such a thing) the readout from the EOT on pipe pressure?
So if I understand right, you only need to do a walking insepection on the cars you;ve picked up then? The rest of the train relies on the terminal and (if there even is such a thing) the readout from the EOT on pipe pressure?
Almost. Any cars that were given an initial terminal brake test and have been detached from an air supply for 4 or more hours must be given a new initial terminal brake test when put in a train.
Cars set out at industry have been detached from an air supply for over 4 hours. They have to be given the full initial brake test. The air has to be charged, leakage tested, brake set made, inspection of each car to make sure the brakes have set an there were no cars with excessive brake travel, then the brakes released and the cars inspected to make sure all the brakes have released.
Normally its not going to take you more than four hours to work an online industry, so the cars on the rest of the train are still considered a "solid block" under the Federal power brake law. They have to have the brake line charged to proper pressure, leakage checked, brakes applied and then the brakes released. The application is indicated by the air pressure dropping on the EOT and release is indicated by the pressure rising on the EOT.
1- Would the crew pick up cars (from industries) and place them on the front or the rear of their train? Probably on the front of the train. If it is a through freight then the pick up of a block of cars would go in block. 2- Are the cars that they are setting out always right behind the locomotive? Not after the first pick up. If in step 1 you picked up 5 cars on the head end, the cars for your next stop are now 5 cars deep in the train. 3- Are there variations from one railroad to another in their rules concerning this? Really not much in the rules regarding how conductors do their work. They do have to do the required brake tests (national), comply with hazmat placement rules (mostly national), comply with train placement rules (varies by road), comply with excessive dimension load placement rules (varies by road), etc. Normally with a local switching industries, it is at the conductor's discretion on how he arranges the cars in his train and how he does his work. 4- Have things changed, concerning setting out and picking up cars, from steam engine/caboose days to today's method of doing things? Sure. Most locals 40 years ago had a 5 man crew ( engineer, fireman, conductor and 2 or 3 brakemen) and a caboose. Today it is normally 2 or 3 men (engineer, conductor, brakeman or engineer, conductor) and no caboose.
Probably on the front of the train. If it is a through freight then the pick up of a block of cars would go in block.
Not after the first pick up. If in step 1 you picked up 5 cars on the head end, the cars for your next stop are now 5 cars deep in the train.
Really not much in the rules regarding how conductors do their work. They do have to do the required brake tests (national), comply with hazmat placement rules (mostly national), comply with train placement rules (varies by road), comply with excessive dimension load placement rules (varies by road), etc. Normally with a local switching industries, it is at the conductor's discretion on how he arranges the cars in his train and how he does his work.
Sure. Most locals 40 years ago had a 5 man crew ( engineer, fireman, conductor and 2 or 3 brakemen) and a caboose. Today it is normally 2 or 3 men (engineer, conductor, brakeman or engineer, conductor) and no caboose.
Thanks to both Wazzzy and Stix for the information. I asked the questions for a couple of reasons, first just my curiosity about how things are done, generally speaking. Second, at times I hold ops sessions here on my layout and prototype information is always good for the operators. I, of course, have both facing and trailing point pickups and setouts to do. Usually we run an EB and a WB, each one working only TP PUs and SOs for convenience and speed. I have 3 side tracks that could be used for run around purposes. I think the next session will be different, one train working both TP and FP spurs but I needed more info and how the real railroads did it.
They may even have to do their own brake checks before leaving the yard! I don't think I could simulate that!
Thanks again for you help!
Generally a freight train that isn't a unit train (all cars of the same type, going to the same place) will be "blocked", arranged in a logical order so the cars going to point A are next to each other, the cars going to B are next to each other etc. On a way freight, it might be set up so the cars for the first industry the train will reach will be at the front of the train, the cars for the second industry behind the first etc. to the end. A good crew will know what works best for their train and the line their on, so the order could be different to meet specific situations...if the last industry you reach has a short run-around track to serve a facing point spur, you might want to put those cars up front to make it easier to do the switching moves requires. Plus as noted, some cars are/were restricted as to where they could be placed (don't put a wooden boxcar of gunpowder or dynamite behind right behind the steam engine!).
ok, its easier to show than to explain......
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a class 1 brake test MUST be completed at the intitial terminal before the train is allowed to depart. this is usually done by the car department but can be done by the train crew. big yards use the car department and the smaller yards without the support elements will complete the required test themselves. a class 1 brake test includes: verifying air pressure to the End of Train Device (EOTD), verify the EOTD is communicating with the Head of Train Device (HOTD), verify the HOTD can initiate an emergency dump of the brake pipe pressure from the EOTD, amount of air leakage thru the entire train consist, ensure all cars can apply and release their air brake systems.
when picking up cars along the route, added cars get the same (general) brake test but without repeating certain steps. the EOTD will 'relink' with the HOTD once the air lines are reconnected and pressure is restored. the crew still needs to verify the application and release of the air brakes on the cars picked up. this is easiest when adding them to the head end of the consist (less walking for the conductor). there are exceptions to the placement of cars with the HAZMAT rules or specific car types (too much to explain here).
when building the train consist at the initial terminal, the conductor considers the entire route and customers to be serviced. generally the train is built with the cars at the head end for the 1st customer, nest set of cars for the 2nd customer and so forth. this works best when the train is heading ONLY in one direction.
if the train is an OUT and BACK run, one must put on their 'thinking cap' and plan ahead.
customer A (CA) is at mile post (MP) 5, East Bound (EB) PU/SO (pickup/setoff); CB is at MP 10, WB PU/SO; CC is at MP 15, EB PU/SO; CD is at MP 20, EB PU/SO. the number of cars PU/SO doesn't matter.
from the head end, build the train to service CA, CC, CD, CB. TOOT TOOT, here we go.....switch out CA. take the train to the closest run around track (EB of CB's location) and put their cars (the ones on the rear of the train) on the side track. continue to switch CC & CD.
after switching CD, run around the train and head in the other direction using the next EB run around. get everthing switched around and head WB. stop at CB's cars in the run around and pick them up (put them on the head end). continue WB and switch CB. when done, take the train home and yard the train.
placement of HAZMAT cars brings on a new element of thinking. some cars can be next to the engine. others need 1 or 5 car spacers from the head end. some HAZMAT classes can't be placed next to other classes. the conductor must think of the departing consist and how (after) switching each customer will affect the placement of HAZMAT. knowing what cars are to be picked up helps this process. there are times the conductor will have empty boxcars in their consist NOT being delivered to any customers and brought back to the yards at the end of the run JUST for the purpose of providing proper HAZMAT placement!
Hope this helps.......
anyone in the Asheville, NC area is welcome to assist in the building of the basement empire. i have cookies and cold refreshments.
Thanks Wazzzy for the information. Would you mind elaborating on your second answer just a little more? Maybe a couple of examples?
Btw, hope you get that 1500 sf basement empire soon!
Wazzzy As a conductor for NS, i can give some insight to your questions....... 1- Would the crew pick up cars (from industries) and place them on the front or the rear of their train? it is easier to place pick-up cars at the front of the consist (there are exceptions). everytime a car is added to the consist, a class 1 brake test must be completed. after the test, it is a pain to walk 20-30-50 cars to the head end. 2- Are the cars that they are setting out always right behind the locomotive? depends how the train is built. a seasoned conductor will build their train depending on the customer list: sometimes at the front or rear depending on a whole list of variables. 3- Are there variations from one railroad to another in their rules concerning this? i can only speak (unoffically) for NS 4- Have things changed, concerning setting out and picking up cars, from steam engine/caboose days to today's method of doing things? the techniques are still the same for setting out and picking up cars. where the cars are placed in the consist is critical with the HAZMAT rules. going from a 4 man crew to a 2 man crew ......well, it just takes longer to get things done. it is hard to explain everything when it comes to car placement. the variables are endless: who gets serviced 1st, 2nd, 3rd; what is the track profile further ahead (loads at the head or rear?); HAZMAT placement; how does the 1st customer switch affect the following customers swithing; is it a oneway trip or is it a out and back trip (what direction do i need to be going); do these cars go with me to the end terminal or do they get set off at an interchange; setting off and picking up cars is the easy part. deciding how to build the train consist AND knowing how each stop sill affect your train futher along the rails is a trial and error process. model railroading does not 'model' the time it takes to do the job. real railroading is not hard, but it takes time (lots of it) to do a basic set-out and pick-up. it gets worse when it is raining..............this I know for a fact. working for NS is my dream job and I have plans for building a 1500 sf basement empire in the near future. AINT LIFE GRAND??
As a conductor for NS, i can give some insight to your questions.......
it is easier to place pick-up cars at the front of the consist (there are exceptions). everytime a car is added to the consist, a class 1 brake test must be completed. after the test, it is a pain to walk 20-30-50 cars to the head end.
depends how the train is built. a seasoned conductor will build their train depending on the customer list: sometimes at the front or rear depending on a whole list of variables.
i can only speak (unoffically) for NS
the techniques are still the same for setting out and picking up cars. where the cars are placed in the consist is critical with the HAZMAT rules. going from a 4 man crew to a 2 man crew ......well, it just takes longer to get things done.
it is hard to explain everything when it comes to car placement. the variables are endless: who gets serviced 1st, 2nd, 3rd; what is the track profile further ahead (loads at the head or rear?); HAZMAT placement; how does the 1st customer switch affect the following customers swithing; is it a oneway trip or is it a out and back trip (what direction do i need to be going); do these cars go with me to the end terminal or do they get set off at an interchange;
setting off and picking up cars is the easy part. deciding how to build the train consist AND knowing how each stop sill affect your train futher along the rails is a trial and error process. model railroading does not 'model' the time it takes to do the job. real railroading is not hard, but it takes time (lots of it) to do a basic set-out and pick-up. it gets worse when it is raining..............this I know for a fact.
working for NS is my dream job and I have plans for building a 1500 sf basement empire in the near future. AINT LIFE GRAND??
Wazzzy 1- Would the crew pick up cars (from industries) and place them on the front or the rear of their train? it is easier to place pick-up cars at the front of the consist (there are exceptions). everytime a car is added to the consist, a class 1 brake test must be completed. after the test, it is a pain to walk 20-30-50 cars to the head end.
-Morgan
When a locomotive is out on the mainline working,