Hello all!
I am in a process of the finishing small L shaped layout, with the PRR/B&O interchange theme, small Pennsy branchline station and small yard with few industries and sidings. Era is late 50's, so early diesels are main motive power for both PRR and B&O.
I am collecting freight cars with this in mind, so about half is PRR, then B&O. Other eastern roads are also represented, with some mid and west cars for good measure.
Recently I got few cars that are a bit puzzling, maybe somebody can help with some answers!
First car is 2-bay LV hopper for which the seller told me it's Accurail, but I am not sure. I do not have original box. Accurail website does not have this type of hopper, not with 8 panels? So who made this car?
Second question is about this ERIE hopper below. It is from Life-Like, ant it had truck mounted couplers. I removed those and mounted Kadee box and #5 couplers. Odd thing about it is that, having the body of the regular 2-bay open hopper, it has mounted roof with 8 hatches, as if the railroad converted the open hopper to the closed type. Did the railroads make those conversions, or is this LL model totally wrong?
Thanks on your answers!
Thommo, your first car looks like one of the old Train Miniature cars. Walthers ended up with this line, although I don't think that they're offering much, if any, of it any longer. Yours has metal wheels, but otherwise looks original. They also made an offset-side version, and it was also a little bit longer than versions offered by other manufacturers.
The LifeLike car is a remake of the original Varney version, which came as an open hopper and, with the inclusion of the roof casting, a covered version. I got one of each back in the '50s, when I first started in HO, and both are still in service, as open cars, on my current layout. My Varney cars came with separate ladders and body-mounted couplers, as the truck-mounted ones are a LifeLike "innovation".
Wayne
Hi Thommo,
The LV twin hopper looks to be a Train-Miniature PS-3 open hopper with aftermarket T-section Bettendorf trucks (likely Central Valley, but they may also be older Walthers trucks from the mid-1980s). The LV didn't have any PS-3's, but the car is an OK stand-in for a USRA twin hopper (if you don't look TOO hard!). These models are now made by Walthers.
The Erie open hopper is "basically" a USRA twin hopper with a railroad-added roof and hatches, to turn the car into a covered hopper. Several railroads did this to their USRA twins (IC, NKP, Rock Island, GN, etc), but to my knowledge the Erie did not. The Life Like model overall is pretty crude, but is the only model available of this sort of 1930s-1950s car conversion.
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943
orsonroyThe Erie open hopper is "basically" a USRA twin hopper with a railroad-added roof and hatches
Although a railroad could have purchased a conversion kit to convert an open hopper to a covered one; they were also factory built that way as well. MEC purchased a number of covered hoppers back in the '20s (maybe earlier). They had the square hatches. Round hatches came in with the 50s Airslide hoppers so as to hold the air pressure during unloading. Bowser makes similar covered hoppers in 2 body styleshttp://www.bowser-trains.com/hocars/2baychop/2baychop.htmhttp://www.bowser-trains.com/hocars/2baychop/2baychop_closed.htm
As a side note, in a discussion of the mix of road names appearing in railroads in the northeast, the comment was that PRR and NYC where so huge that a freight car fleet should have 10% each of PRR and NYC. There was no mention of how much NYC should appear on PRR or visa versa.
George In Midcoast Maine, 'bout halfway up the Rockland branch
G PaineorsonroyThe Erie open hopper is "basically" a USRA twin hopper with a railroad-added roof and hatches Although a railroad could have purchased a conversion kit to convert an open hopper to a covered one; they were also factory built that way as well. MEC purchased a number of covered hoppers back in the '20s (maybe earlier).
Although a railroad could have purchased a conversion kit to convert an open hopper to a covered one; they were also factory built that way as well. MEC purchased a number of covered hoppers back in the '20s (maybe earlier).
Maybe I should have been a bit clearer. Let's try this:
"The Life Like model represents a USRA twin hopper (or a 1920s built clone) that has been railroad-modified from an HM open hopper into a LO covered hopper."
And I highly doubt that the Maine Central bought any covered hoppers in the 1920s. I'm getting a 1926 ORER in the main in a couple of days, and will check out their roster. According tot he 1930 ORER (which I do have on me now) the MEC had ZERO covered hoppers. In fact, at the time LO's were VERY rare, accounting for only 2,266 cars in the USA and Canada (out of a grand total of 2,829,013 cars). Only five railroads and one private line owned ANY covered hoppers in 1930 (in order of fleet size, L&HR, CNJ, AOCX, TC&GB, SAL, ACL).
Bowser makes similar covered hoppers in 2 body styleshttp://www.bowser-trains.com/hocars/2baychop/2baychop.htmhttp://www.bowser-trains.com/hocars/2baychop/2baychop_closed.htm
True, but these models represent cars built in the late 1930s through early 1950s. The USRA conversions were generally done just before or just after WWII, and look completely different. That's why the overall mediocre Life Like model is actually a useful car to have: it's just about the only way to quickly & easily model a fairly common transitional type car.
Fleet mixing is an art, not a statistical science. Yes, the Pennsy had the largest fleet on the rails, but 40% of their 215,000 cars (in 1950) were open hoppers, most of which were in semi-captive service between mines and ports. In terms of boxcars, the Pennsy was #3 behind the NYC and CN, but had twice the number of boxcars as the #5 largest boxcar fleet, the ATSF. The biggest probem is in the fact that there's too much data to understand, and the more you know, the more you DON'T know. Boxcars went everywhere, as did gons and flats. Everything else was biased towards regional demands, interactions between RR companies, and the whims of the shippers, which actually set routings, NOT railroads. That's why you get an occasional N&W hopper over Sherman Hill, but almost never a Santa Fe hopper in Vermont.
In reality, running "whatever you like" is about as accurate as any other method, so long as you stick to cars that realistically LOOK appropriate for your chosen time period (no PC cars in a 1950s layout, etc).
I remember seeing a B&O covered hopper from an USRA twin that was very similar to the Life Like car, it was carrying fluxing stone to the steel mill in Coatesville. The Reading also had some similar cars in cement service (and converted dozens of quad hoppers into 2 bay covered hoppers for cement service)..
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
orsonroy And I highly doubt that the Maine Central bought any covered hoppers in the 1920s. I'm getting a 1926 ORER in the main in a couple of days, and will check out their roster. According tot he 1930 ORER (which I do have on me now) the MEC had ZERO covered hoppers. In fact, at the time LO's were VERY rare, accounting for only 2,266 cars in the USA and Canada (out of a grand total of 2,829,013 cars). Only five railroads and one private line owned ANY covered hoppers in 1930 (in order of fleet size, L&HR, CNJ, AOCX, TC&GB, SAL, ACL).
Ray, you're certainly right about covered hoppers not being very common in the '20s and early '30s, but not all roads classified them as covered hoppers in those days, either. The CPR, for instance, built 200 36' Dominion (Fowler Patent) boxcars in 1912-13 which were equipped with drop doors in the floor at the centre of the car, then added another 3500 steel 40'-ers in the 1920s. While not true covered hoppers (no roof hatches and no actual hoppers), they were essentially the same type of car. When they built their first true covered hoppers in 1919, they were rostered with the boxcars and labelled "Battleship Grain Cars".
Vow, great info, thanks to all!
I really like those early covered hoppers, especially PRR H30 class and those nice wagontop designs that B&O used before going to PS cov. hoppers.
While we are at it, what can you say about this E&B Valley Airslide Covered Hopper Kit? I have it, it is still unfinished, because BLT date is 8-63, a little to new for my era. It is N-47A type airslide hopper. I like the kit and will try to build it, but did those cars appear in late 50's? In other words, would the change of BLT date to, say, 6-58, be correct?
Second question is about Stewart 11009 3-bay open hopper in B&O livery. It is W-10 type hopper, and has BLT 2-64 date. Same question applies, were those cars manufactured in late 50's, or is it newer design? Thanks!
That Erie covered hopper brought a long-forgotten memory out of the cobweb-infested reaches of my subconscious.
1953, give or take a year. A buddy and I cut school (legally - it was a 'holiday') and crossed over from Staten Island to the wilds of New Jersey. There was an Erie covered hopper of the exact design then available from Varney sitting at a concrete batch plant. The only difference was the paint scheme - concrete grey with black herald and reporting marks (probably to hide the concrete dust 'weathering.') The railroad was the New York and Long Branch, which was still running passengers behind PRR K-4s at that time.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I believe that the Airslide design dates to the early '50s, but, of course, some modelled versions may be of more modern prototypes. I'd say that your car is suitable for use on a '50s layout.
The style of open hopper shown dates back to the '30s, but there were similar ones in service at least as early as 1926. There was a similar design from the ARA in 1930, and one pretty-much the same as your model, from the AAR, in 1934.
Just change the BLT dates to better suit your era.
orsonroy the more you know, the more you [know you] DON'T know.
the more you know, the more you [know you] DON'T know.
That's for sure. That's for dang sure.
Mark
Wayne, I have checked the paper manual of the E-B kit, there is photo of the GACX Airslide with the BLT 11-54 date, so you are right. For me, that's enough!
Pennsy way of converting open hoppers to covered ones.
Funaro & Camerlengo new Pennsylvania Railroad GLe Covered Hopper kit
http://www.modelrailroadnews.com/channels/ho-scale/single-article-page/pennsy-gle-covered-hoppers-recapture-a-time-of-transition/712f44ef3c.html
Thommo Vow, great info, thanks to all! I really like those early covered hoppers, especially PRR H30 class and those nice wagontop designs that B&O used before going to PS cov. hoppers. While we are at it, what can you say about this E&B Valley Airslide Covered Hopper Kit? I have it, it is still unfinished, because BLT date is 8-63, a little to new for my era. It is N-47A type airslide hopper. I like the kit and will try to build it, but did those cars appear in late 50's? In other words, would the change of BLT date to, say, 6-58, be correct?
B&O had N-47 cars built ca. 1957 which were more or less identical. The lettering may have been different, the main visual difference would have been that the N-47's rode on bettendorf trucks, whereas the N-47a rode on roller-bearing trucks.
Greg
orsonroyAnd I highly doubt that the Maine Central bought any covered hoppers in the 1920s. I'm getting a 1926 ORER in the main in a couple of days, and will check out their roster.
MEC purchased 10 covered hoppers for cement service in 1917 from Standard Steel Car Co, road numbers MEC 2400-2409. They were rebuilt in 1934 and remained in service until the late 60s. Additional cement hoppers were bought in the early to mid 40s, road numbers MEC 2410-2444; others were purchased in the mid 50s. This information is from "Northern New England Color Guide to Freight and passenger Equipment" with accompanying photos.
Finally, those beautiful H30 Pennsy hoppers arrived in the old Europe!
I have to say, this car is one of the most detailed I ever saw. Great job, Bowser!
orsonroyFleet mixing is an art, not a statistical science. Yes, the Pennsy had the largest fleet on the rails, but 40% of their 215,000 cars (in 1950) were open hoppers, most of which were in semi-captive service between mines and ports. In terms of boxcars, the Pennsy was #3 behind the NYC and CN, but had twice the number of boxcars as the #5 largest boxcar fleet, the ATSF. The biggest probem is in the fact that there's too much data to understand, and the more you know, the more you DON'T know. Boxcars went everywhere, as did gons and flats. Everything else was biased towards regional demands, interactions between RR companies, and the whims of the shippers, which actually set routings, NOT railroads. That's why you get an occasional N&W hopper over Sherman Hill, but almost never a Santa Fe hopper in Vermont.
Hopper cars not only went from mines to ports but,to steel mills,coke plants,coal dealers,and was used in stone service.
I have seen Santa Fe open hoppers loaded with Western gravel on the PRR in Columbus(Oh) back in the 50s..
PRR/N&W,C&O/Clinchfield interchanged complete coal trains.B&O and NYC handle complete coal trains off the Southern and L&N bound for the lakes and steel mills.
The "art of fleet mixing" must apply to modelers because the railroads never had such art since they hauled interchanged freight based on customers needs.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I once read in a MR or RMC an article that suggested that 80% of one's rolling stock should be home road; and have used that as a guideline ever since. I no longer remember how the author arrived at that figure, or if he gave support for it in the text.
Mike
sandusky I once read in a MR or RMC an article that suggested that 80% of one's rolling stock should be home road; and have used that as a guideline ever since. I no longer remember how the author arrived at that figure, or if he gave support for it in the text. Mike
80% is way to high I would say more like 50-60% based on my observation railfaning and working as a brakeman.
80% would be a lot of idle cars since customers get their shipments from national suppliers on other roads..Straight line haul on a single railroad is unusual even for unit trains.
My first BLI freight car, NYC 40' boxcar #105065. I suppose those were regular guests on PRR rails during the fifties...
You're probably creating a better-balanced mix of cars than most native Americans do. The NYC boxcar is an excellent choice for your time period. The car was about 30 years old in the mid-1950's, but it has been repainted with the gothic lettering that was adopted in the mid-1950's. Since the NYC served the same general territory as the B&O and PRR, it makes sense for that car to be on your layout.
I have spotted one interesting N&W gondola, in ancient video from PRR Horseshue curve, the same N&W car is pictured on both pics. Number is not readable. As I can see, it is not Greenville 52' gondola which P2K/Walthers makes. Pictured car has 20 or more side ribs.
Anybody knows a bit more about this car?
Thommo I have spotted one interesting N&W gondola, in ancient video from PRR Horseshue curve, the same N&W car is pictured on both pics. Number is not readable. As I can see, it is not Greenville 52' gondola which P2K/Walthers makes. Pictured car has 20 or more side ribs. Anybody knows a bit more about this car?
Russell
Some issues brought up a long time ago were never resolved. First, Erie DID have smaller, older open hoppers that were rebuilt as covered hoppers. I'm not sure that the Varney car is 100% accurate, but it's close. However, the yellow diamond was used on only a few freight cars, so the car would probably look more believable if the diamond logo were white. That woul be a fairly quick & easy paint & decal project. The B&O bought offset 3-bay hopper cars in the 1940's and 1950's, and liked them so much that they actually bought some more in the 1960's. They were probably the last RR to buy this design.
New member of my freight fleet, SAL B-6 40' 1932 ARA boxcar, #18822. The model is from Atlas Master line. Very fine model in my opinion, nice details, metsal blackened wheels, I only replaced Accumates for Kadee 148's. Even better, JAX 10-56 reweight date is perfect for my cca. 1958 time frame, so no need for re-decaling those dates. ;-)
This car has 9'4'' inner height, the difference can be seen when coupled to 10'0'' tall car.
In looking at your picture, the car looks like an ex=PRR G26 Gondola thanks to the three extra long ribs on the side of the car. The N&W and PRR were until the mergers locked at the hip and cars were traded back and forth between the two railroads. The Lehigh Valley was similar and they had some G26's on their roster.
The only available car is the old Eastern Car Works G26 kit, which can sometimes be found on E-bay, the major problem with the kit is its lightness and the fact that it sits too high and everything needs to be lowered and then the coupler height adjusted. The Athearn car may work for another class of N&W cars, but the car in you picture is definately a G6.
Rick J
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
My 1937 Car Builder's Cyclopedia has two photos and a drawing of an Erie covered hopper with modified hoppers at the bottom, so not entirely identical to the standard bottom hoppers on the Varney/Life-Like car - which I bought when it was still a Varney offering but Varney in its last gasp as a manufacturer. But in general outline and overall bulk it is pretty similar.
The prototype is described as a 50 ton cement hopper. The car number is 20000. Blt 7-34. The B&W photos suggest a gray paint scheme, not Varney's black, but cars (and steam locomotives) were often painted gray for photography purposes. The two end panels and the slope of the slope sheets differ from the model, as do the hatch sizes and placement.
Somewhat similar to the Varney-Life Like car in the '37 Cyc is a National Plate Glass Company covered hopper with truly traditional coal-hopper type hoppers on the bottom, for transporting dry sand. The end panels and slope of the slope sheets seems very similar to the Varney car, but the prototype has a horizontal seam halfway up the side.
The Cyc also shows a fascinating B&O covered hopper with the ribbed "covered wagon" profile. I have a recollection of a Keith Kohlmann kitbash in N scale in one or another of the model magazines.
Dave Nelson
Erie #20000? I recently saw the model somewhere... There is it, even though it is O scale.
http://myp48.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/erieonmec.jpg
From: http://myp48.wordpress.com/page/7/
As for B&O waggontop HO models, www.springmillsdepot.com will be offering plastic models od N-34, I think somethimes in the fall/winter.
Yes, Thommo, that is the very car in the 1937 Car Builder's Cyclopedia. The builder did a great job except the hatches are a bit thicker than what the photograph shows. The trucks might not be exactly right as well but the model photo might be too dark to tell. And it is impossible to tell from the Cyclopedia photos whether the Erie logo was yellow or white. My guess would be white.
Thank you also for introducing me to that man's blog as there is a lot of interest in it even for those not in Proto48.
Many manufacturers and decal companies have used the numbers shown in older Car Builder's Cyclopedias because in the absence of better information it is one way to at least get the number right. By the way the 1937 Cyclopedia also shows the Pennsylvania RR class H30, but it is numbered 254252. Perhaps Bowser also offers that number?
It also shows a very nice top view with all hatches open on one side. The caption remarks on the "Alan-Wood Superior-Diamond Pattern Rolled Steel Plate Running Boards and Brake Steps, the Longitudinal and Lateral Running Boards Being a Part of the Roof." The caption for the B&O "covered wagon" covered hopper also remarks that the rolled steel running boards are an integral part of the roof structure.
I'm certain that small Erie covered hopper was available as a brass model many, many years ago. The importer may have been Overland, but I can't be certain. I had a friend who had one. Probably pretty hard to find one today. HO scale, that is.