New York Central reference

[Anonymous]

Wayne- keep us posted on your layout. Some of the best years of my life were spent in that area.

Your comment about riding your mountain bike reminded me of how I rode am old single speed J. C. Higgins all the way from Whitesboro, NY (west of Utica) to Old Forge to see a certain young gal named Dawn I had met while on a hi school ski trip that past winter. I was 15, without a car, and forbidden by my parents to hitch-hike, but for some reason they thought it okay to ride a bike the approx. 120 mile round trip ! By the time I got to Old Forge I was a hot and sweaty mess. Dawn looked at me and I looked at the weight she had gained since winter, and we both said 'never mind'. At least the trip back home was mostly downhill. . .

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bill mathewson

If you're looking for one of the more obscure NYC branch lines, consider the Adirondack Division of the N Y Central Railroad

I'll be riding my mountain bike north of Rainbow Lake along some of the abandoned Adirondack Division right-of-way tomorrow. Much of the track is currently controlled by the Adirondack Scenic Railroad, though trains currently run only at each end, Utica to just past Thendara & Lake Placid to Saranac Lake. Someday I hope, trains will run the full length of existing track. Most of the roadbed north of Saranac up to Malone is now a utility right-of-way.

I'm including hints of the branch in my new N scale layout along with the D&H whose tracks ran parallel to the NYC for a while in some pretty remote wilderness. They ran pretty much single track mainline though you might provide a reeeally long passing siding. Most NYC locos except the largest ran through the Adirondacks. Your tall wood trestle would be prototypical up here though might have been replaced by fill by the time period you mention.

To save time & money on making 6 million acres of scale trees, I'm going to model an earlier era, during the fire years when much of the forest burned as a result of the locomotives. (Only kidding.)

Both books Bill mentions have been really helpful to me, along with "Rails in the Northwoods" about old shortlines up here in the Adirondacks, most of which connected with the NYC.

Another branch to think about is the old Ulster & Delaware that became NYC's Catskill Mountain Branch in 1932 with shops in Kingston, NY. Stock up on old Ten Wheelers if you do.

Wayne

[Anonymous]

Wow.

Awesome knowledge. Though I knew the NYC was huge, I didn't realize how big. I have added all the mentioned books to my Amazon.com wishlist.

Thanks for the tips and additional info is welcomed!

[Anonymous]

If you're looking for one of the more obscure NYC branch lines, consider the Adirondack Division of the N Y Central Railroad (aka Mohawk & Malone Railway) line that ran from the Utica, NY area (in the Mohawk Valley) north through the Adirondack Mountains, up to the St. Lawrence River where it interchanged w/ the CP just south of Montreal, Quebec It served a beautiful lake and mountain region in the Adirondacks, interchanged w/ the Rutland, GT, CP, D&H, D,L,&W, amongst other, and was composed of a whole bunch of short branch lines, some of them serving resorts on various upstate NY lakes, well into the 1930s; after that, one by one of the stub branches were abandoned. Branches served the Old Forge/ Fulton Lake Chain, Lake Placid and Raquette Lake resort regions.

There was plenty of east-west traffic at Utica, being located on the "Water Level Route of the NYC" between NY City and Chicago, passenger trains betweeen Utica and Montreal, mail,milk and even ice trains, some mining & logging industry, and resort traffic. If you like modeling water-creeks, swamps, rivers, lakes, etc. this route had plenty of that including lake boats, as well as many trestles, bridges, water front scenes, dimunitive stations, and plenty of spectacular scenery. Much of the rail was fairly light, w/ sharp curves and some sections of steep ruling grades. Snow was spectacular for several months each year.

Classic, smaller NYC steam - 2-6-0, 2-8-0, 2-8-2, 4-6-0, and 4-6-2s were most common in the period you want to model. There were several roundhouse/engine servicing facilities incl. at Utica, Tupper Lake, and Malone Junction. Some of the steam were oil-burners, and some were coal- fired. There was lots of Pullman traffic throughout the 1930s, as well as resort and commuter traffic.

There are a couple of books worth consulting re: this Division - "Fairy Tale Railroad" by Henry A. Harter, published in 1979 by North County Books (no pretty color pictures, buy lots of good b&w, plus very well done station by station coverage, industries served, good photo coverage of the lake front resort traffic, and the chronology of the various branches, etc. Another good resource for this region, and that covers this railroad, plus others that served the Adirondacks, is entitled : "Where Did The Tracks Go" by Michael Kudish, published by The Chauncy Press in 1985. Again no pretty pictures, but a tremendous resource of mile by mile operations, track configurations at each station, yards, engine servicing points, etc., plus detailed topographical maps of the entire route. Both books have an extensive, but dated, bibliography. There probably are more recent publications dealing w/ this Division, and the N Y Central historical societies should be consulted. I grew up in this region, and am surprised that there isn't more modeling of it being done, or at least I'm not aware of it.

FYI - The Adirondack Railway was (re)formed, following abandonment, in the late 1970s to serve the Utica to Lake Placid region, and specifically the 1980 Olympic Winter Games in Lake Placid. I do not know the present status of this route, not having visited the area since the early '80s.

[orsonroy]

HI Reno,

Gee, ask only simple questions on the forum, eh?

Being a NYC fan, and part-time modeler (my layout's based on the NKP and P&E, a NYC subsidiary), I'll see what I can help you with.

The first thing you have to keep in mind when talking about the New Your Central during the entire 20th century, is that the road was HUGE. It was the second largest railroad in the USA in every way, second only to the Pennsy. The railroad was big, the freight car fleet was enormous, there were up to 200 passenger trains a day on the road, etc. It was a monster, and was run like a slice of the military.

QUOTE:
where were roundhouses located on the NYC?

All over the place. During the steam-era, railroads were divided up into division and subdivision points, of roughly 100 miles (about the coal capacity of a "standard" tender). Virtually every division point, and many subdivision points, would have a turntable. There were lots of differences in the style, size, and operation of the turntables, which will partially answer your question about assignments of steam engines.

QUOTE:
How big (it seems to have run from St. Louis to a point beyond New York) was the NYC of this period?

Second largest in the USA, spanning over 15 states and two provinces in Canada.

QUOTE:
Within the range given, were there significant differences in motive power, rolling stock, magnitude of the line?

Most definitely! The NYC was, as most large roads were, a conglomeration of many smaller roads built in the late 1800s. While most railfans tend to focus on the mainlines, most trackage was actually on secondary mains and branch lines. Many branches didn't have the traffic base to justify improving them, so they were little more than logging roads. In Indiana in the early 1950s, the NYC used pre-USRA 2-6-6-2s because there was a lot of traffic, but the grade was pretty bad. The only way to move freight was by using malletts, which were lighter on their feet than superpower. The NYC had a large fleet of small engines (4-6-0s, especially) that hung on until the end of steam, just because of all the weight restricted branches. As for rolling stock, you wouldn't see a 20th Century Limited passenger car set working the shuttle train for the Indianapolis 500; that was reserved for old wood heavyweights!

QUOTE:
What is the difference between New York Central Lines and New York Central System?

Effectively nothing. It was a business name change brought on in the 1920s when the NYC absorbed most of it's subsidiary lines into the greater NYC. Even after that, the NYC had several semi-independent subsidiaries, unlike virtually any other road in the nation.

QUOTE:
Were Hudsons and other named engines ONLY used on certain lines?

Most engines had a specified range, mainline, or task. The bigger engines like the mowhawks and niagaras were limited to mainline use both by their size, and by the power needs of trainmasters. No point in sending a 4-8-2 on a 2-8-0s errand, especially when you'll need that 4-8-2 later. Of course, engine assignments are a hard thing to research, so you'll have to work in general terms until you can find something concrete.

QUOTE:
How many (which) roads did the NYC interchange with during this era?

In short, every railroad East of the Mississippi. Well, not quite, but almost true. According to my CD-ROM copy of the 1950 ORER, the NYC interchanged with over 170 railroads in well over 1000 locations (the interchange list takes up five pages!)

QUOTE:
Did other roads' locos share any of the stations or terminals?

Yes, at certain large terminals. Toledo, Columbus, Cleveland, Peoria, St Louis, Chicago, Indianapolis, Lafayette, and many others I don't know about. Sometimes the NYC owned the facilities and other roads paid rent, and sometimes the NYC paid rent. One reason I'm modeling Peoria is because it is a terminal town. Most of the 15 roads that served the towns used the P&PU belt line's track and facilities, meaning you could see a NYC steam engine parked next to a GM&O F-unit set, with a Santa Fe Baldwin behind them!

QUOTE:
Are there particular books, literature or other reference that can break this down into a timeline of sorts?

Oof. Yes, considering the NYC was one of the largest railroads around, there have been hundreds of books written about it! Your best bet is to start looking around online for info, and whittling it down from there. Most books on the NYC deal woth a single topic (gondolas, or passenger stations, or diesels) and won't give you a good overview of the railroad in general. Unfortunately, most railroad histories deal with the business end of things, and so end up boring you to death. Probably the best short, general NYC book around is "The New York Central Railroad", by Brian Solomon. Amazon carries it.

Your first stop for NYC research should be the NYC historical society:
http://www.nycshs.org/
You might want to join one or all of the 4-6 NYC-related Yahoo groups as well. Digging through the archived posts will answer many questions about the road, and there are many like minded railfans that will be able to better answer specific questions!

And remember: the NYC was a HUGE railroad, with lots of different character to it. It wasn't all the 20th Century Limited racing back and forth between New York and Chicago!

[Anonymous]

Greetings!

This is my first post in this forum and I am hoping it's fruitful. I have begun a Model Railroad (HO) for the late 30s-early 40s period. I am hoping to lock down the date era a bit more specifically and tailor industries appropriately to the period.

I want to incorporate: a large engine servicing facility with roundhouse (where were roundhouses located on the NYC?), double mainline track, a tall wood trestle (prototypical or not!), multiple elevations with long passing sidings, appropriate industries, (fairly) prototypical rolling stock, my fleet of NYC locos and good signals and blocks.

I have found tremendous reference material available for the New York Central but still have lots of questions.

How big (it seems to have run from St. Louis to a point beyond New York) was the NYC of this period? Within the range given, were there significant differences in motive power, rolling stock, magnitude of the line? What is the difference between New York Central Lines and New York Central System? Were Hudsons and other named engines ONLY used on certain lines? How many (which) roads did the NYC interchange with during this era? Did other roads' locos share any of the stations or terminals? Are there particular books, literature or other reference that can break this down into a timeline of sorts?

Looking back... this is a fairly big first post!

Thanks for the help!