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1940's information, anyone?

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  • Member since
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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Wednesday, April 14, 2010 10:04 AM

the North East Rail Modeler
   O.K. you got me: I don't have any 12-inch mortars or a spare blockhouse laying around. I guess something like this could tie into my layout. I'm not only a railroad nut, but a military nut too. I can identify a majority of WW II tanks and equipment on sight (I can't tell you what specific types of Panzer IV though. Germany made too many sub-class models) But please, even though I like them, don't send any more photos of military hardware to me. I've already flooded the house with drool from that AA gun picture, and that mortar is the icing on the cake. 

 

Then get thee to the U. S. Army's Ordnance Museum at the Aberdeen Proving Ground, about a half-hour northeast of Baltimore,  Maryland - see http://www.apg.army.mil/apghome/sites/about/directions.cfm   I think they have 1 of about everything that was ever built in the collection, if not on display yet - including a rail-mounted cannon, a Krupp K5 also known as ''Anzio Annie'' - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Ordnance_Museum .

This site says that it's ''one of the world's best tank museums'' - http://www.peachmountain.com/5star/US_Army_Ordnance_Museum.aspx 

Official website - http://www.goordnance.apg.army.mil/sitefiles/OrdnanceMuseum.htm 

- Paul North. 

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
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Posted by kansaspacific1 on Tuesday, April 13, 2010 9:14 PM

 Try this link:

 http://www.kalmbachstore.com/cs4071101.html

 

Special Issue of Classic Trains....Railroads in WWII, if you don't already have a copy.

 Chuck

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Posted by the North East Rail Modeler on Monday, April 12, 2010 6:20 PM

 O.K. you got me: I don't have any 12-inch mortars or a spare blockhouse laying around. I guess something like this could tie into my layout. I'm not only a railroad nut, but a military nut too. I can identify a majority of WW II tanks and equipment on sight (I can't tell you what specific types of Panzer IV though. Germany made too many sub-class models) But please, even though I like them, don't send any more photos of military hardware to me. I've already flooded the house with drool from that AA gun picture, and that mortar is the icing on the cake.

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Posted by wjstix on Monday, April 12, 2010 4:57 PM

One thing re freight cars to recall is size. The 40' long, 10' high steel boxcar began production during the 1930's, but in the 1940's there would still be quite a few 40' cars built in the teens-twenties that would be around 8-1/2' height - both steel cars (like the Pennsy X-29) and wood sided cars. Also, wood sided cars would be both double-sheathed and single sheathed (the ones with outside bracing).

So in a string of boxcars c. 1944 you would see quite a difference in height and styles.

In the 1980's-90's Walthers made a number of variations of the 1920's cars, including all steel and all wood cars, plus composite cars (steel roof and ends, wood sides) based on the old Train Miniatures line. You can probably still find many of them on ebay or at flea markets.

Stix
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Posted by leighant on Monday, April 12, 2010 4:33 PM

My layout is set in 1957, when this gun emplacement in Galveston TX was not operational, but it was still there as a relic. 

Still is there.  Not on the layout, but I have a spot set aside across the street from the beach.  In real life, it was not near the railroad, but I am putting my big guns, the pier nightlub and the roller coaster near the rail causeway to the mainland...as if that was where the island ended on the west, and a clear "shot" to the Gulf.

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Posted by markpierce on Monday, April 12, 2010 3:32 PM

the North East Rail Modeler

 Don't let me get my hands on a heavy artillery piece, it could mean lots of fun for meWink

Got shells for a 12-inch mortar?  Must shoot from a blockhouse.  The muzzle blast from these babies is wicked.  (Battery Way, Corregidor, Philippines)

 

Mark

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Posted by the North East Rail Modeler on Monday, April 12, 2010 2:58 PM

markpierce
The gun's sight had been removed and the cranks for aiming were locked.  No ammo was handy.

 

Good thing I havn't gone there! If I had, that AA gun would have mysteriously started working again, the sights replaced, and a whole Matador truck of ammo would have came. Laugh  NOTE* Don't let me get my hands on a heavy artillery piece, it could mean lots of fun for meWink

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Monday, April 12, 2010 10:35 AM

the North East Rail Modeler
  [snip]  If it would help, I plan to model a fictional railroad during late WW II (after June 6, 1944), and I already have the idea for a layout: a short-line railroad that delivers a majority of incoming freight to a buisy port (owned by the Navy) for export to eather the Pacific, or the European fronts.  [snip]

Your concept sounds a lot like the operation at the Naval Weapons Station - Earle in northern central and shoreside New Jersey.  From http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/earle.htm -

''The station is divided into two sections: Mainside, located in Colts Neck, and the Waterfront Area [Leonardo Piers - PDN], on Sandy Hook Bay, adjacent to the town of Leonardo. Both areas are connected by Normandy Road, a 15 mile military road and rail line.''

Although the article doesn't say so, the railroad was traditionally double-track, and may still be so, though that may be more intensive and 'main-line' than you want.

I'm also thinking that some of the short-line railroads in the Carolinas,Georgia, and Virginia - and maybe elsewhere - that served military bases would fit your concept, if not location.  The Aberdeen and Rockfish would be one - also, the connecting Cape Fear Rwys - see:

A&R: a railroad you can model
Model Railroader, November 1965 page 33
See also related article in Railroads you can model   Book icon, page 29
( A&R, "DUNN, MICHAEL J. III", RAILROAD, SHORTLINE, TRACKPLAN, PROTOTYPE, HO, MR )

Bivouac for World War II railroading
Trains, October 1968 page 36
711 Railway Operating Battalion on the Red River & Gulf, Camp Polk, La.
( ARMY, "CHURCH, WILLIAM T.", MILITARY, TRN )

- Paul North. 

"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
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Posted by dehusman on Monday, April 12, 2010 10:22 AM

the North East Rail Modeler
I know that steam was king when it comes to locomotives, and WWII took over everything from 1941-1945 (the U.S. involvement) and the main export in that time frame was war goods in that time.

Military traffic was on top of most of the regular traffic. People still needed to eat, steel was still being made, etc. Some of the militarty traffic was "normal" traffic diverted to military use.

Now for my questions: How close were we to diesel locomotives in the 40's ( or, if they were already around, what were the main diesels out there?)

E-units on passenger trains, FT's on a few freights. RS-1's occaisionally. Switchers. After 1945 all the carbody units came on line and the formative hood units started showing up.

Were wooden cars the norm for the big railroads, or were steel cars catching on rapidly?

Steel cars were the norm by the 1930's. Wood underframe cars stopped being made around 1910 and wood superstructure cars stopped being the norm by the 1920's, althouth there were holdouts. For about 3-4 years during WW2, cars were made using steel underframes and wood sheathing, called "war emergency" cars. By the 1940's the vast majority of cars on a class one eastern roads would be steel, with only the leftover USRA (WW1) cars and the few WW2 war emergency cars would be wood sheathed

How were flatcar loads secured and were they covered? (I know, it's sort of a dumb question, but if my history serves me right, I think the government tried to keep the military stuff under wraps so spies couldn't photograph them)

Most loads weren't tarped unless they needed to be covered from the weather. If you not in the pix posted above the two halftracks aren't tarped. Also the vast majority of military loads weren't armed vehicles. For every tank or artillery piece there were dozens of trucks and cranes and loaders and jeeps and cargo carriers, etc. By secured do you mean how were they tied down to the flatcar or how they were protected?

 If it would help, I plan to model a fictional railroad during late WW II (after June 6, 1944), and I already have the idea for a layout: a short-line railroad that delivers a majority of incoming freight to a buisy port (owned by the Navy) for export to eather the Pacific, or the European fronts.

Just remember that in late 1944 or early 1945 the US Navy started cancelling contracts for ships and stopping construction on ships already started. By the end of 1944 most of the major warships in the Atlantic had been shifted to the Pacific with only escort and transport duties in the Atlantic. That freed up steel to use in railcars so the railcars started being produced all steel again. Most Navy yards were for construction and repair. The majority of war materiel would have been shipped from the regular public port docks. By the end of 1944 most of the major warships in the Atlantic had been shifted to the Pacific with only escort and transport duties in the Atlantic. So the need for naval ammunition in the Atlantic declined rapidly after June 1944.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Monday, April 12, 2010 10:16 AM

I would think that the Classic Trains magazine by Kalmbach elsewhere on this website and related publications would be a wealth of information. 

Also - this book by Don Ball came immediately to mind - I have the hardback version, and in view of your inquiry, I think it's exactly what you're looking for in subject and atmosphere/ context - you'd find it worth your while to find a copy to look at

Decade of the Trains: The 1940s by Don Ball Jr., with Rogers E. M. Whitaker [''E. M. Frimbo'']

  • Paperback: 288 pages
  • Publisher: Little Brown & Co (P) (May 1980)
  • Language: English
  • ISBN-10: 0821207598
  • ISBN-13: 978-0821207598
  • Product Dimensions: 11 x 10 x 0.8 inches
  • Shipping Weight: 2.4 pounds
  • http://www.amazon.com/Decade-Trains-1940s-Don-Ball/dp/0821207598/ref=pd_sim_b_2  

    - Paul North. 

    "This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
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    Posted by markpierce on Sunday, April 11, 2010 8:11 PM

    That's me at Dover Castle, England.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dover_Castle  The gun's sight had been removed and the cranks for aiming were locked.  No ammo was handy. Mischief

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    Posted by the North East Rail Modeler on Sunday, April 11, 2010 7:52 PM

    That has helped me quite alot.  Thanks. 

     One last question: Who is that on the AA gun?  Where is that gun?  it looks like the person at the controls is aiming at somthing, is it an enemy aircraft? Laugh

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    Posted by markpierce on Sunday, April 11, 2010 6:40 PM

    the North East Rail Modeler

    I know that steam was king when it comes to locomotives, and WWII took over everything from 1941-1945 (the U.S. involvement) and the main export in that time frame was war goods in that time.

    Now for my questions: How close were we to diesel locomotives in the 40's ( or, if they were already around, what were the main diesels out there?)

    Were wooden cars the norm for the big railroads, or were steel cars catching on rapidly?

    How were flatcar loads secured and were they covered? (I know, it's sort of a dumb question, but if my history serves me right, I think the government tried to keep the military stuff under wraps so spies couldn't photograph them)

    Here is a U.S. diesel locomotive chronology.  It doesn't include a lot of small locomotives designed for industrial use.

    http://www.urbaneagle.com/data/RRdieselchrono.html

    Increasing numbers of all-metal freight cars had been occurring for about 30 years, but there were still a lot of wooden and composite cars around.  There was a "rebirth" of composite cars during the war due to steel shortages.

    Wooden blocks, framing, cable and chain were used to secure loads.  Loads were usually uncovered such as landing craft, tanks, trucks, halftracks, jeeps, etc.  The nation's industrial capacity was trumpeted at least in part for psychological warfare purposes.  (Mein Fuhrer, the U.S. is shipping 2,000 tanks to eastern ports monthly!)

     

     

     

    Mark

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      January 2010
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    1940's information, anyone?
    Posted by the North East Rail Modeler on Sunday, April 11, 2010 6:21 PM

      I'm not sure why, but it seems like the clock is ticking backwards when it comes to my likes and interest. Back when I started in this hobby, I was all-out with wanting my layout to model the present day. Then I moved it back to the 1990's when I learned about Conrail (and found that I like their paint scheme).  The clock has stopped (for now) in the 1940's (early, mid, or late, I don't know.) and now I'm stumped.

    I know that steam was king when it comes to locomotives, and WWII took over everything from 1941-1945 (the U.S. involvement) and the main export in that time frame was war goods in that time.

    Now for my questions: How close were we to diesel locomotives in the 40's ( or, if they were already around, what were the main diesels out there?)

    Were wooden cars the norm for the big railroads, or were steel cars catching on rapidly?

    How were flatcar loads secured and were they covered? (I know, it's sort of a dumb question, but if my history serves me right, I think the government tried to keep the military stuff under wraps so spies couldn't photograph them)

     If it would help, I plan to model a fictional railroad during late WW II (after June 6, 1944), and I already have the idea for a layout: a short-line railroad that delivers a majority of incoming freight to a buisy port (owned by the Navy) for export to eather the Pacific, or the European fronts.

    I only look for these questions to be answered, but if anyone has additional information that could help me, it would be appretiated. 

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