I recently started purchasing the Walthers 'City" passenger cars. They are advertized as being correct in color. However, I have several UP locomotives that I painted a few years ago with Floquil's Armour Yellow and it is significantly different that the paint on the Walthers cars. The Floquil paint is, in my humble opinion, correct to prototype. I live in Roy, Utah so I see the UP all the time. The Walthers color seems to too much (red?) in it. What say you, fellow modelers? Incidentally, the new Armour Yellow matches the old. Here's some trivia, the old Floquil is an 'RPM Company' as is the new. Did Testors buy Floquil, or t'other way around?
That's true, David, Although I'm an EL fan, I'm also a Chessie System fan. That livery is a yellow and black with a vermillion (red) stripe. Not only does the yellow vary slightly but so too does the red. I've seen it on the prototype (as well as on models). It gives one much more leeway for "modeler's license", doesn't it. Paint shops seem to use whatever is available at the time.
As stated, the color varies. In the past, most shops mixed their own paint, weathering, and age all team up to vary the colors. Another factor is that yellow is one of the colors that weather very badly. I have over a hundred UP locos, collected over the past 50 years, and probably 50 different shades of UP Armor Yellow!!
Ok, maybe 'who's right' isn't the corrct question. Maybe 'who's closest' would be more apropriate. I understand all the weathering and mixing arguments, but I at least want to have an accurate starting point. As I stated previously, it appears Floquil's Armour Yellow is 'closer' to prototype. I have some older Riverossi cars and the color on them is very close to the Walthers cars.
It is great talking to you guys. Wish I had joined earlier. I was a modeler from childhood but had a 35 year hiatus serving in the Navy, raising a family etc. It's great to get back into the modeling again. Incidentally, is there a solvent / thinner that can be used to mix with the old Floquil formula?
color also varies with scale and lighting, a HO passenger car painted with the exact same paint will appear lighter next to a N scale version, same car, same paint, same lighting, but the N car will look darker. ain't the brain a wonderous thing!!
Testors bought RPM Industries (Floquill, Polyscale,etc)
Jay
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davidmbedard Again....my first reply is the correct response to this post as well. There was variation.
There is no closest.
Having mixed automotive paint for the Carquest & Napa I used to work for, I can say that there is no true variation of a particular colour. Automotive paint, at least when I did it, was mixed by weight & if you missed mixing a particular ingredient by even a gram, you would have a colour variation.
When I was working for Napa, I was chatting with a Dupont rep & he told me that they took 20 painters, gave them one gallon of paint between them & asked them to paint a small metal panel. After they mixed the paint to spray it, each painted panel had a different shade of the same colour drawn from the same gallon of paint.
The weather also has an effect on shades of colour. Sun, wind, rain all effect the colours of things as well. Try picking up a touch up paint stick for your 3yr old & older car & see if the "correct" colour you buy from the dealership matches the origional paint on your car. The car will be a few shades off due to "weathering".
The closest shade of a colour would be the one that pleases you the most
Gordon
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CP5415I was chatting with a Dupont rep & he told me that they took 20 painters, gave them one gallon of paint between them & asked them to paint a small metal panel. After they mixed the paint to spray it, each painted panel had a different shade of the same colour drawn from the same gallon of
The weather also has an effect on shades of colour.
It is a fading paint.
The Union Pacific has about 8000 locomotives at last count and looking at the pictures, I don't believe any two locomotives are the same shade. Maybe some of the new ones are almost identical, but that does not last long.
The Walthers cars are fairly close to what I normally want in a passenger train. The Floquil is different for sure but I always used scalecoat, a different shade from Floquil.
CZ
About weathering and fading, the paint would get lighter over time, not darker would it not? I certainly would not mind minor color variations as it would lend more authenticity to the models, i.e. different batches of the same paint, even model paint. A completely different shade is more than a minor variation, and don't we strive for the greatest accuracy we can acheive within the limits of scale?
BTW, thanks for the great discussion! Keep it up!
Thanks, Dave. I thought about the primer at just about the same time as your post. My personal feeling is Walthers has the color shall we say not quite right, but they are exceptional models otherwise. I'm going to do some experimenting. Incidentally, at the Union Station in Ogden today, my young grandson was climbing on and under the locomotives and cars at the museum there. During one of these 'under' experiences, (an RPO car) I discovered that the underside is green. The equipment is gray, but the underframe and floor are green.
davidmbedard Another thing to consider is undercoat. A yellow (which happens to be the most difficult color to paint) will look completely different with a white primer than with a grey primer. With the prototype, if the primer was a darker shade of grey, then the yellow would absolutely reflect that. Also consider the different shades of UP Grey. Again, different batches give you different shades. And the visual difference between the Grey and the yellow will affect how your eye perceives the yellow..... David B
Another thing to consider is undercoat. A yellow (which happens to be the most difficult color to paint) will look completely different with a white primer than with a grey primer.
With the prototype, if the primer was a darker shade of grey, then the yellow would absolutely reflect that.
Also consider the different shades of UP Grey. Again, different batches give you different shades. And the visual difference between the Grey and the yellow will affect how your eye perceives the yellow.....
David B
Add lightiing and how that can affect how you perceive colour to that mix and it's a wonder that one can colour match sometimes--
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
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7j43kLeaving out whose yellow is right, I'll say that you definitely want all your City cars to match. Since it looks like you're staying with the Walthers cars, they will. Except perhaps if you get some pre-City Walthers UP cars--not sure there. If you decide to add cars from some other manufacturer, you "should" paint them to match the Walthers cars. You may have to do some custom mixing for that. The engines you choose to pull your City cars should all match each other and be a close match to the City cars. Because the engines and the cars are each slightly different visually, your brain will forgive a slight color difference between each type--this as compared to adjacent passenger cars, for example. That's why I expect to be able to pull my Coach Yard City of Portland with P2K E8's (We won't here go into why I chose the word "expect".). I say all the above because I have yet to see a photo of a City train where any car or loco was noticeably a different color than the others. And should a car or loco not match, it was definitely contrary to company policy and not typical. Now, all this does not necessarily apply when you get away from the subject train(s). Little branch line local UP trains just might have a somewhat off color of yellow on one of the Harriman coaches. And so to for some adjacent switcher or road freight engine. And then there's weathering and paint fade (as mentioned earlier). BUT, UP really wanted their name trains to look sharp. They were partly promotion tools for the company, after all. And a sharp train has all the colors matching. And executives sometimes make loud scary huffing noises when employees don't do what they like. Like matching colors. Ed
I say all the above because I have yet to see a photo of a City train where any car or loco was noticeably a different color than the others. And should a car or loco not match, it was definitely contrary to company policy and not typical.
Now, all this does not necessarily apply when you get away from the subject train(s). Little branch line local UP trains just might have a somewhat off color of yellow on one of the Harriman coaches. And so to for some adjacent switcher or road freight engine. And then there's weathering and paint fade (as mentioned earlier). BUT, UP really wanted their name trains to look sharp. They were partly promotion tools for the company, after all. And a sharp train has all the colors matching. And executives sometimes make loud scary huffing noises when employees don't do what they like. Like matching colors.
Ed
Another couple of obsrevations:
Well, it is just as relevant an issue now as it was then. In particular regarding the "Armor Yellow" craft-paint thread.
Interesting how the situation with hobby paints has changed further since 2010...
At the club yesterday we had a similar discussion regarding TTX yellow. Cars from different manufacturers all had different hues. Some of the cars may have been matched to pictures which can be a mistake as to sunlight, film processing etc.
Also, yellow paint has changed, the UP cars from the fifties were painted with yellow cadium or zinc chromate paint, both of which were a rich yellow paint, but due to the toxicity of cadmium and lead, these were substituted for by other paint formulas which did not have the same brightness and after aging in the sunlight changed dramitacally.
Not, yellow but the C&NW had some covered hoppers delivered in Green Paint and after aging they now seem a dark blue color.
All paints in the 70's on have had the problem of fading etc, as the paints are nowhere near as lasting at the paints of the 50's and 60's.
Regarding Floquil, after RPM (Testors) bought the line of paint, they changed the carrier from Xylene (very toxic) to enamel. Which I am sure changed the shades of paint and Floquil was always known for the paint shades changing for the same color with every batch of paint.
Another thing we discussed was that old Floquil, Scalecoat etc. that came in glass bottles held up longer and with less problems than paint that now comes in plastic bottles. The plastic is porous unlike glass which causes problems with outgassing.
Rick Jesionowski
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No one has mentioned primer. Unless you use a dead-neutral primer, the paint color is going to shift, and whites, yellows, reads and pale grays are particularly bad this way. I like Tamiya Surface Primer White.
Graham LineNo one has mentioned primer. Unless you use a dead-neutral primer, the paint color is going to shift, and whites, yellows, reads and pale grays are particularly bad this way.
100% absolutely true. You must choose a very suitable primer, then use the SAME primer on all your models when painting to match.
If you guys think trying to agree on what colour Armour Yellow is, you ought to hear military modelers argue about what colour Panzer Yellow is supposed to be.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Walthers color choices can be "interesting" sometimes. When they came out with the HO GN Empire Builder, they chose to use a shade of orange that not only didn't appear to be correct for the Builder, it didn't even match the orange of the Great Northern passenger cars they'd produced a couple of years before.
SeeYou190 Graham Line No one has mentioned primer. Unless you use a dead-neutral primer, the paint color is going to shift, and whites, yellows, reads and pale grays are particularly bad this way. 100% absolutely true. You must choose a very suitable primer, then use the SAME primer on all your models when painting to match. If you guys think trying to agree on what colour Armour Yellow is, you ought to hear military modelers argue about what colour Panzer Yellow is supposed to be. -Kevin
Graham Line No one has mentioned primer. Unless you use a dead-neutral primer, the paint color is going to shift, and whites, yellows, reads and pale grays are particularly bad this way.
I guess I don't know how to paint because I never use primer!
dti406I guess I don't know how to paint because I never use primer!
Well, there you have it. Rick produces fine models that photograph beautifully, and does not use primer. I take this as proof that there is absolutely more than one way to skin that cat.
I will continue to use a primer coat, even if it is a step that could be skipped.