As to lodging and meals today here's how it is I work. The railroad pays for the motel room. For meals we get a $6.00 allowance for the first 12 hours away from home. If you're there longer than 12 hours, you get another $6.00. So if you're off duty away from home 11 hrs and 59 mins, you get $6.00. If you're there for 35 hours (done this a couple of times) you get $12.00. Others may have different contract provisions.
Jeff
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Ah,That's the way of it today..Sounds like a better deal.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Hi, don't know much about the rule, but my experience on the California Zephyr was the first crew change out of Chicago was Ottumwa in Iowa, a distance of 279 miles. The crew out of Denver handed over at Grand Junction, Colorado a distance of 273 miles.
wjstix Back to the 100 mi. rule...not sure if someone mentioned this, but before mechanical lubricators came along, steam engines couldn't go very far before needing to be stopped and lubricated. Maybe 15-20 miles or so IIRC. So adding that in with other work being done along the trip, the 100 mi. rule when introduced probably was pretty realistic.
Back to the 100 mi. rule...not sure if someone mentioned this, but before mechanical lubricators came along, steam engines couldn't go very far before needing to be stopped and lubricated. Maybe 15-20 miles or so IIRC. So adding that in with other work being done along the trip, the 100 mi. rule when introduced probably was pretty realistic.
The basic day (when it was 100 miles) usually read in the agreements something like 100 miles or 8 hours equals a basic day. (Again as mentioned previously, this isn't a maximum. You went to work and if you only worked 7 hours or 95 miles, you were paid the full 100mi/8hrs.) That 100 miles equals a train doing 12 1/2 mph for 8 hours. I've read that one of labor's (all groups not just RR) biggest goals was the 8 hour day. I wonder when the agreement was first made if that 12 1/2mph wasn't close to the average over the road train speeds including delays for work, lubrication, fueling and water etc. Of course some would do better and some would do worse, but most would be in that range.
Maybe if the average train speed had been slower or faster, that original distance for 8 hours would've been more or less than 100 miles. (The current 130 mile basic day equals 16.25mph for 8 hours)
PS There was a great article in Trains some time back about how crews are called and how pay is figured etc.
wjstixBack to the 100 mi. rule...not sure if someone mentioned this, but before mechanical lubricators came along, steam engines couldn't go very far before needing to be stopped and lubricated. Maybe 15-20 miles or so IIRC. So adding that in with other work being done along the trip, the 100 mi. rule when introduced probably was pretty realistic.
The "100 mile rule' only had to do with how much the crew was paid. There was no restriction on how far the crew actually worked. Terminals ranged between 75 and 150 miles apart. It would be extremely rare to find terminals 100 miles apart. The terminals were set well before the "100 mile rule" was established.
Terminals weren't 100 miles apart because that's what they paid the crews, they 100 miles was about the average of how far the terminals were apart (and its a nice round number.)
The "100 mile rule" didn't drive the location of the terminals, the location of the terminals drove the distance in the 100 mile rule.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
markpierce BRAKIE Paul,No..The 100 miles was between terminals and once at your "away" terminal you waited for your call.. There's nothing like being 14 or 15 out..That means you are stuck at least 20 hours at your "away "terminal...I have spent as high as 27 hours. I could have deadheaded back but,you don't make money doing that.. Almost all employers pay for an employee's lodging and eating expenses for jobs far from home. Doubt this was true of railroad train crews, however. Is this still true in recent years? Mark
BRAKIE Paul,No..The 100 miles was between terminals and once at your "away" terminal you waited for your call.. There's nothing like being 14 or 15 out..That means you are stuck at least 20 hours at your "away "terminal...I have spent as high as 27 hours. I could have deadheaded back but,you don't make money doing that..
Paul,No..The 100 miles was between terminals and once at your "away" terminal you waited for your call..
There's nothing like being 14 or 15 out..That means you are stuck at least 20 hours at your "away "terminal...I have spent as high as 27 hours.
I could have deadheaded back but,you don't make money doing that..
Almost all employers pay for an employee's lodging and eating expenses for jobs far from home. Doubt this was true of railroad train crews, however. Is this still true in recent years?
Mark
They put us up at the Railroad YMCA and paid for one meal..
I believe today its a hotel and one meal?
Paulus Jas hi, may be i am hijacking a thread; did railroads had a policy about getting their men and steamers back home the same day? Was it 50 miles down and 50 miles up or a "night" away from home? Paul
hi,
may be i am hijacking a thread; did railroads had a policy about getting their men and steamers back home the same day?
Was it 50 miles down and 50 miles up or a "night" away from home?
Paul
Interesting discussion regarding time and miles. In May 1971 my wife, son and I took Amtrak from Yakima, Wash. (via Pasco, Spokane and east thru Mont., ND, etc.) to Chicago. We were onboard for 45 hours and covered approx. 2000 miles. Average speed was about 45 mph. Now I know why it took so long with all that stopping for other trains and changing crews. 15 years later my sister and I drove non-stop almost parallel to the train route on Interstate 90 and made the trip in 32 hours. Our average speed was about 60 mph. We only stopped to buy gas when needed (approx. every 300 miles) and refuel our stomachs and drain our bladders. The train was a lot more fun and I still don't mind that it took longer. The food and service was great! I just wish it wasn't so expensive to travel cross country by train today.
dehusmanThe run from N Platte to Omaha or Marysville is over 250 miles and literally more than a hundred of trains and crews make the run each day in less than 12 hours.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
wjstixBTW seems to me I just read somewhere that the 100 mi. rule was eventually changed to 130 mi.??
The basic day (which is what everybody keeps calling the "100 mile rule") was increased several times.
Currently crew runs are now in the 150-250 mile range in the western US with a few bumping close to 300 miles.
Not the engines, they wouldn't generally be turned and sent back, but would keep going thru to the next division. They would be serviced there, and might be sent back the next day on a train to where they started. At least with steam engines. With diesels, I know when Great Northern first got FTs it used to send them on a daytime passenger train from Mpls-St.Paul to Duluth-Superior, then they would be turned and sent back to the Twin Cities pulling an overnight freight or mail train.
However, the crew might do an "out and back" turnaround like that, although probably not 50-50. In "Thoroughbreds", a book about the New York Central Hudsons, there's a section (I think taken from an old newspaper story) about Bob Butterfield, famous NYC engineer featured in some Lionel train ads in the thirties. IIRC he took over a train in the morning heading north and ran it to the next division, then took over another passenger train around noon going the other direction, and ended up back home in the late afternoon. Then he would be off a day because the length of the trips caused him to earn two day's pay in the one day.
BTW seems to me I just read somewhere that the 100 mi. rule was eventually changed to 130 mi.??
BRAKIE Dave wrote: You need to get out on a real main line sometime. 50 miles in 2 hours is a really bad day on many routes. There are a lot of routes where hundreds of miles of railroad average 30-40 mph between terminals. ----------------------------------- Dave,That is a real main line.That's part of Norfolk Southern's Norfolk to Chicago main line and sees up to 60 trains per day including intermodules. I think you need to go trackside with a scanner and stopwatch in hand and time trains between small cities...You will soon learn they are not speedsters..
Dave wrote:
You need to get out on a real main line sometime. 50 miles in 2 hours is a really bad day on many routes. There are a lot of routes where hundreds of miles of railroad average 30-40 mph between terminals.
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Dave,That is a real main line.That's part of Norfolk Southern's Norfolk to Chicago main line and sees up to 60 trains per day including intermodules.
I think you need to go trackside with a scanner and stopwatch in hand and time trains between small cities...You will soon learn they are not speedsters..
I think what is happening is the difference in distances between facilities and locations in the East and West. I know I didn't understand the difference - being raised in the East - until I actually moved and lived in the West. 100 miles or more between 2 "adjacent" towns is not unusual.
I have driven I-80 from Sacramento through California and Nevada where it parallels the UP (old SP) main line. I have seen many trains keeping pace for long stretches, especially through Nevada. I typically average 50 MPH driving over an 8-12 hour day when all stops are added in. It's pretty disconcerting to take a potty or meal break in Winemucca and catch up with the same train about 90 miles further along - the same train I was pacing when I left the Interstate for the break. Based on my observations I can believe 50 MPH averages along portions of Western main lines where it's mostly all through trains due to minimal inhabitation of the area.
Another interesting study in intense prototype operations is the Front Range line from Denver to Pueblo, CO. Train speeds are pretty slow (seldom above 45, even on the southern half), but rarely do trains stop along the 110 mile route - and I have no knowledge of ops north of Denver. There are parades of loaded coal trains going south along the line and east (from Pueblo) on an hourly basis, with regular freight interspersed. And the empty hoppers going back north. This is about 90% double track from the joint use of the ex-DRG&W and ex-ATSF parallel mains.
just my observations
Fred W
Paulus Jas may be i am hijacking a thread; did railroads had a policy about getting their men and steamers back home the same day? Was it 50 miles down and 50 miles up or a "night" away from home?
IIRC jobs could be called/advertised as "turnaround service". They would go out and then return to the home terminal. There would not be an away from home terminal. A lot of local freights operated this way. The crew could still be cut off en route and put in for rest, but they would go back on the clock for pay (not necessarily hours of service) after 8 hours rest and stay on pay until reaching the home terminal. This is from the 1970s, but it was probably not much different in the steam era.
Keep in mind that labor agreements vary from road to road and location to location.
BRAKIE Dave,They don't count terminal dwell time with in transist speed.A car standing still doesn't count.
Dave,They don't count terminal dwell time with in transist speed.A car standing still doesn't count.
The train speeds you provided the link to do count terminal dwell of a train. They are train level measures, not car level measures.
The shippers perfer to count the days their load actually moves from point A to point B.
Again,those happy speeds you are leaning on doesn't count with the big picture the shippers look at.
I'm not leaning on any measures, I'm just explaining how the measures you brought up are actually measured and what they do, and do not mean.
Dave,50 miles in 2 hours by rail would be record breaking.
Paulus JasWas it 50 miles down and 50 miles up or a "night" away from home?
In the vast majority of crew districts it was a night away from home.Some roads had short runs where the trains did an out an back or could make a "loop" (e.g. on the RDG a train would run Reading to Philadelphia to Allentown, back to Reading). The ICG/IC was having crews swap out at the meeting point and run back home. But most crew run from home terminal to away from home terminal, wait for rest, then wait for their turn to come back up then run home, get their rest, wait for their turn to come up, tthen run to the away from home terminal, etc, etc.
It takes NS 35-40 minutes at track speed (35) between Bucyrus and Marion and that's only 17 miles by rail..I have time Westbound trains after the crew calls the signal above RT.4 in Marion.
BRAKIEDave,Those are very accurate numbers for the mention railroads.The average speed is for all trains regardless of divisions..
I know, some of the model railroaders in my area calculate those numbers for a class one railroad.
BRAKIEAll they are saying is your freight car will be averaging XX miles per hour over our system.
It really doesn't even say that because it doesn't count terminal dwell when the cars are NOT on a train. So If a car runs on a train 50 miles in an hour, spends 40 hours in a terminal, then spends an hour on a second train going 50 miles, the train speed is 50 mph and the transit time is 42 hours. If the train takes 2 hours to go the 50 miles, spend 25 hours in the terminal and then takes 2 hours to go the next 50 miles, the train speed it 25 miles an hour and the transit time is 29 hours.
The AAR train speed numbers are really only useful to compare trends over time. The speed itself isn't as important. If railroad A has consistent speeds over 3 or 4 years, railroad B has steadily declining speeds and railroad C has increasing speeds, then you can make some general assumptions that service is steady on railroad A, declining on RR B and improving on RR C.
Dave,Those are very accurate numbers for the mention railroads.The average speed is for all trains regardless of divisions..
All they are saying is your freight car will be averaging XX miles per hour over our system.Note the killer terminal dwell time.Short sections of high speed track means nothing to a shipper(Does it even impress them? Probably not)..Its the average speed and terminal dwell time that counts.
That average speed includes delays cause by meets,track work,slow orders,speed restrictions through interlocking plants,over powered switches,through towns and cities,grades,enroute switching etc.
This is why it can take 12 hours to go 100 or less miles.Of course if all goes smooth you can make your run in good time.
BRAKIE Well,That track does have a nice average speed of 25mph for all trains....One of the fastest in the industry. Here's the weekly performace chart for the railroads. http://www.railroadpm.org/Performance%20Reports/NS.aspx Note how the average speed varies from road to road.
Well,That track does have a nice average speed of 25mph for all trains....One of the fastest in the industry.
Here's the weekly performace chart for the railroads.
http://www.railroadpm.org/Performance%20Reports/NS.aspx
Note how the average speed varies from road to road.
Just a caution, that number reflects the SYSTEM train speed, not necessarily how fast the average train travels between terminals (the system speed might be 25 mph but on a particular segment between terminals the average train speed may be 40 or 50 mph). There is some variations on what the different railroads include in their measures, and what delays are included in the train speed (when does the clock start, when does it stop). Over the last decade or so the eestern roads have been consistently higher than the eastern roads, primarily because of the distance between terminals is higher in the west. These performance numbers are less useful when comparing railroad to railroad and are best to compare an individual railroad's trend over years.
dehusman BRAKIE Those must be extremely lucky railroaders or they have a triple track main.. That's quite a feat to move so many trains in 12 hours.. Not luck. The majority of modern crew districts on western railroads are in the 150-200 mile range and the vast majority of crews make it in under 12 hours.
BRAKIE Those must be extremely lucky railroaders or they have a triple track main.. That's quite a feat to move so many trains in 12 hours..
Those must be extremely lucky railroaders or they have a triple track main..
That's quite a feat to move so many trains in 12 hours..
Not luck. The majority of modern crew districts on western railroads are in the 150-200 mile range and the vast majority of crews make it in under 12 hours.
You wouldn't see that speed just a few years ago and I am not talking about the steam era either..
Jeff,Again smooth sailing is not the norm for railroaders.If it was crews wouldn't be going dead miles away from the terminal nor rail shippers be complaining about how slow railroads are.
BRAKIE Dave wrote: The run from N Platte to Omaha or Marysville is over 250 miles and literally more than a hundred of trains and crews make the run each day in less than 12 hours. -------------------------------- Those must be extremely lucky railroaders or they have a triple track main.. That's quite a feat to move so many trains in 12 hours..
The run from N Platte to Omaha or Marysville is over 250 miles and literally more than a hundred of trains and crews make the run each day in less than 12 hours.
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Part of the route (North Platte to Gibbon) is triple track now. Even before the third track they were running those expanded districts.
Does anyone (besides Dave) know what the current basic day is in this day of Gevos and the like? It's 130 miles. As Dave said, it's not a maximum number that can be worked but a minimum for pay purposes. One of the pools out of my home terminal only works 109 miles, but pays 130 miles. The other two pools work 197 miles and 161/186 miles depending on route taken.
BRAKIE Dave,There is a lot of things that would stop a crew from going 200 miles-even passenger train crews. HOS begins when you sign the book and you may need to wait before you can even start your run.
Dave,There is a lot of things that would stop a crew from going 200 miles-even passenger train crews.
HOS begins when you sign the book and you may need to wait before you can even start your run.
Yeah and if you were scheduled to run 5 miles and derailed coming out of the departure track that would prevent you from running 5 miles.
The point is that there is NOTHING in any rule book that prevents a crew district from being more than 100 miles.
So there is nothing that prevents a crew from operating 200 miles (very common for passenger crew pools) its just the railroad pays them 2 days's pay for every trip.
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I been called for 1:30AM and we didn't depart until 3:00AM.So,we was good for 10 1/2 hours however,we faced a red block for another 30 minutes before we left the yard.Now we are good for 10 hours..Arrived at Limeville and spent another IIRC 1 1/2 hours facing a red while the DS cleared up a flock of trains off the Northern division plus 2 coming off the single track Cincinnati Division.
Anyway,by the time we reach Queensgate we had 30 minutes to spare and that's roughly IIRC 122 miles from Russell.
Railroading is anything but,smooth sailing..I 'll guarantee you that you will face a host of Red blocks that will include long waits in the middle of nowhere.
We use to take turns taking catnaps if we had a long wait.
THERE IS NO 100 MILE RULE. NADA, DOESN"T EXIST.
100 miles was a basic day's pay in the labor contracts. It wasn't a rule, that is, a requirement. it wasn't a requirement. All it was was a measure of when they made over a basic day's wages.
If you study real railroads you will find the crew changes ranged from 75 to about 150 miles apart. The railroaders were paid on a sliding scale where anything less then 100 miles and 8 hours was a basic day's pay. anything over 8 hours and 100 miles was paid on a sliding scale depending on the time and mileage.
The time a crew can work is set by the Federal Hours of Service law (HOS) It says a crew can only work 16 hours (up to about 1974) then it changed to 12 hours max after that. If a crew works less than the maximum hours they only need 8 hours rest before they can be called back to service. If a crew works the full HOS they require 10 hours rest.
Train crews, signal maintainers, train order and control operators and dispatchers are covered by the HOS. If there is more than one shift on duty at a location (applies to operators and and dispatchers) the HOS is 9 hours). The HOS is an absolute maximum and has NOTHING to do with how a crew is paid or how far a crew can operate.