Hot metal train operation(s) ?

[Dave-the-Train]

One of the things mentioned in response to my recent attempts to get my head round the rail geography of Chicago was hot metal (torpedo/bottle/etc) car trains.  I have done some looking and these appear interesting...

Short question is: "What can you tell me to lighten my (near complete) darkness please"?  Anything and everything please.  So far I've mostly found pics... they pique my interest but don't tell me much more.

Complicated questions are:- 

• Are they run under special rules?
• Are they run as high/wide/heavy/special loads?
• Do they have / have to have a caboose?
• Can they run any time?  On a strict schedule or ad-hoc as extras?
• Are they restricted from passing other trains - such as passenger trains or tank cars?
• Do they have to run point-to-point or can they be shuffled about some?  (I know that they have to get to destination with a hot load before it stops being hot enough to pour out of the car)
• Do they get prioritised?  (So that they can get to destination before cooling).
• Are empty returns dealt with differently?
• Do they ther-and-back or circuit work?
• Do they have special requirements - such as at Grade crossings... are they allowed over public Grade crossings?
• Do they have specific power requirements?  Like extra power to make sure they will not conk out en route?
• Are they speed limited?
• Is there a maximum number of cars in a movement?  Loaded?  Empty?
• Are trains always made up of the same kind of car?
• Are the cars stencilled / numbered in the same way as ordinary cars?
• Anything else I should have asked about?

Thanks

[dehusman]

Most of them are in plant moves so most of your questions don't really matter.  They never come out on a main track.

[Dave-the-Train]

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=275923&nseq=3

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=226524&nseq=16

(Looks like an “airforce 1” on the right).

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=225944&skip=1

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=206177&skip=1

This one is topped and tailed and has a freight about to pass it…

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=202904&skip=1

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=191872&skip=1

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=179508&skip=1

seems like they can go over grade crossings

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=153298&nseq=30

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=93340&skip=1

So I've discovered that they can cross grade crossings and they can pass - at least some - traffic on adjacent tracks.More information please anyone?Thanks

[BRAKIE]

dehusman

Most of them are in plant moves so most of your questions don't really matter.  They never come out on a main track.

 

Tell that to the Union RR which makes part of its living hauling hot steel.

[underworld]

 Very cool photos!!! I knew that they put a flat car or gondola between the loco and the hot car for a single....but now I see they put a separator car in between hot cars as well. I've been past the metal works in Gary Indiana many times.....on Amtrak and driving on the turnpike. I've always wanted to see about shooting photo/video on one of the plant sites.

 

 

     underworld  

[dehusman]

Dave-the-Train

Complicated questions are:- 

• Are they run under special rules?

If they are, they are run under local general orders.  For example the current UP has no instructions specificaly for bottle cars in its special instructions, nor did the 1966 Reading railroad which operated through an area know for steel mills..

• Are they run as high/wide/heavy/special loads?

Most likely no, most likely they are just intraplant switch moves.

• Do they have / have to have a caboose?

Intraplant no.

• Can they run any time?  On a strict schedule or ad-hoc as extras?

They would have to run at the furnace's schedule,

• Are they restricted from passing other trains - such as passenger trains or tank cars?

Since there are no instructions, there would be no restrictions.

• Do they have to run point-to-point or can they be shuffled about some?  (I know that they have to get to destination with a hot load before it stops being hot enough to pour out of the car)

Enough to get the cars in the train and spotted.

• Do they get prioritised?  (So that they can get to destination before cooling).

Whatever priority the switch crew has or the locals want to give the train.

• Do they have special requirements - such as at Grade crossings... are they allowed over public Grade crossings?

Don't know of any reason why they would not.

• Do they have specific power requirements?  Like extra power to make sure they will not conk out en route?

I rather doubt it.They are probably moving at most a few miles so even if the engines died they would have other engines in the area.

• Are they speed limited?

If they do it isn't listed in any of the timetables or special instructions.

• Is there a maximum number of cars in a movement?  Loaded?  Empty?

The number of cars is tied to the size of the furnace.  I doubt any furnace will produce more than two or three cars of steel at one time.

• Are the cars stencilled / numbered in the same way as ordinary cars?

The cars aren't interchanged or designed for interchange service.  I have never seen a bottle car that had more than the plant's indentification on it.

You have to remember that these are very rare cars (maybe a couple hundred in the entire US?) and weren't used in every steel plant.  They weren't interchanged and they rarely roamed more than the few miles between the furnace and the mill. So while the Union may have hauled them on a main line, the Union was a shortlined owned by a steel mill to primarily to serve the owner's steel mills.

[faraway]

I read in the employee time tables of the CSS or IHB some special instructions and rules for that kind of freight. They had at least route and speed restrictions. Also the use of flat car for protection is described.

[dehusman]

faraway

I read in the employee time tables of the CSS or IHB some special instructions and rules for that kind of freight. They had at least route and speed restrictions. Also the use of flat car for protection is described.

And that would make sense since they (like the CSS or IHB) would be the short line switching carrier that would be switching the plant, like the Union RR previously mentioned or the PBNE that is shown handling bottle cars in the film clip on the Philadephia thread currently on the forum.  The hot metal trains are all short moves between different parts of steel mills, they are switching moves rather than road haul moves.

[WSOR 3801]

 The move past Dolton Jct. used to be a Conrail move.  Last time I was down there (1994-ish), the tower at Dolton was manned by a Conrail operator, and his main mission was to get the bottle train through with a minimum of delay. 

Once the cars are loaded, they have a short time to get to the other plant before the load cools down too much to pour out. 

I'm sure there are speed restrictions on the train.  Wouldn't want the load to slosh out.

[Dave-the-Train]

I like that Dolton situation... gives me a reason for a manned tower and controlled grade crossing just like I'm after in my scheme. 

[route_rock]

Check with a IHB or CSS group out there. I have seen one of the moves out in Gary and I remember seeing a speed restriction somewhere of 15 or 25 but I am sorry i cant recall it.They are a priority switch move and supposedly if they are close on time they will hold everything else to get it through. Like someone else said you have to dump em before they cool too much.

  Dave is right about being rare cars. Very few in the US and like posted its in areas where steel mills are. If you do model some I would love to see pictures.

[route_rock]

Classic Trains Winter edition, At least thats the one I think it is in, has a story on the Erie at Youngstown Ohio running bottle trains.

 

[steamfreightboy]

underworld

 Very cool photos!!! I knew that they put a flat car or gondola between the loco and the hot car for a single....but now I see they put a separator car in between hot cars as well. I've been past the metal works in Gary Indiana many times.....on Amtrak and driving on the turnpike. I've always wanted to see about shooting photo/video on one of the plant sites.

 

 

     underworld  

Why do they run flat cars and gondolas between each of the cars, and is it always those two types of cars?

sfb

[Dave-the-Train]

steamfreightboy

Why do they run flat cars and gondolas between each of the cars, and is it always those two types of cars?

Someone might be able to be more precise but:-

1.  Probably to distribute load - 6 and 8 axle cars are going to be heavy.  When the big centre depressed cars run in pairs or more they are often spaced by gons or flats.

2. Safety.  The same as spacer cars are used between loco and some tank cars... although between tank and tank would be unusual - to the extent of almost never.

3.  Safety again (maybe) so that if any one hot metal car is involved in an incident it will be less likely for a second car to be involved at the same time.

Gons or flats would be better for being able to see the cars from the loco or a caboose if one is used.  The steel industry is also somewhat more likely to have flats or gons floating around than anything else.  I wouldn't use an LPG tank car! 

[steamfreightboy]

Dave-the-Train

steamfreightboy

Why do they run flat cars and gondolas between each of the cars, and is it always those two types of cars?

Someone might be able to be more precise but:-

1.  Probably to distribute load - 6 and 8 axle cars are going to be heavy.  When the big centre depressed cars run in pairs or more they are often spaced by gons or flats.

2. Safety.  The same as spacer cars are used between loco and some tank cars... although between tank and tank would be unusual - to the extent of almost never.

3.  Safety again (maybe) so that if any one hot metal car is involved in an incident it will be less likely for a second car to be involved at the same time.

Gons or flats would be better for being able to see the cars from the loco or a caboose if one is used.  The steel industry is also somewhat more likely to have flats or gons floating around than anything else.  I wouldn't use an LPG tank car! 

I have a spare coke car. Would that work?

sfb

[Dave-the-Train]

steamfreightboy

I have a spare coke car. Would that work?

Does it have couplers, brake hoses and round wheels?  They would make an initial answer of "yes".

However... is it an internal steelworks car or all stencilled up for road use?  If it complies with the requirements it could be used out on main track.

Then there is a question of whether it would be more in demand to do its designed job.  Coke cars are fairly rare and specialised while gons and flats are pretty common.  So using a specialised car is not impossible but less likely.

[steamfreightboy]

Dave-the-Train

steamfreightboy

I have a spare coke car. Would that work?

Does it have couplers, brake hoses and round wheels?  They would make an initial answer of "yes".

However... is it an internal steelworks car or all stencilled up for road use?  If it complies with the requirements it could be used out on main track.

Then there is a question of whether it would be more in demand to do its designed job.  Coke cars are fairly rare and specialised while gons and flats are pretty common.  So using a specialised car is not impossible but less likely.

It is lettered for a coke plant. I bought it before I realized that electic funaces don't use coke

[Dave-the-Train]

steamfreightboy

It is lettered for a coke plant. I bought it before I realized that electic funaces don't use coke

That's just what you want... the car is redundent from its original use so it's just right for a barrier car.

[steamfreightboy]

Dave-the-Train

steamfreightboy

It is lettered for a coke plant. I bought it before I realized that electic funaces don't use coke

That's just what you want... the car is redundent from its original use so it's just right for a barrier car.

Do you need the extra cars for the slag cars?

 

[Dave-the-Train]

steamfreightboy

Do you need the extra cars for the slag cars?

From what I've seen slag cars are internal use only.  Run between the smelter and wherever they are tipped.I don't recall ever seeing one out on RR track of any kind.  I doubt that they would even be allowed out when working.  I imagine that the frame car might be allowed on RR track when being delivered new or moved between works - running without the crucible in them.  The crucibles might travel (probably inverted) on flat cars.  NOTE:  I have not seen this though... it's just a logical supposition.  Again I would suspect that maintenace would almost all be done within the steel works... but the car(s) without crucible might travel to the nearest car works for things that the steelworks couldn't do themsleves - don't know what these would be...  Gives a logical excuse for a special movement though.

To answer the actual question... the pics I have seen have sometimes had a bariier of cars between the loco and the slag cars but I've not seen them between cars.

Thinking about the spacer cars out on the road a bit more it has occurred to me that they might also be there to provide additional brake force.

To explain this... 1st I don't know if it is a US practice at all... but we used to do it...

A train has to operating considerations that apply to this... one is to have a power to weight ratio to allow the train to be shifted at appropriate speeds.  The other is a weight to brake force ratio.  (I'm sure someone else can explain this more technically).  If you have two locos with ten fully loaded cars you get one brake force ratio.  Add a bunch of braked cars with no load and the ratio changes... more force to less load in the totals.  The change allows a train to be worked at higher speed.  We used to do it when shifting MoW machines around.  They usually had strings of ferry vans tagging along with them for no other purpose than to increase their permitted line speed.

I would guess that the spacer cars in a string of bottles would have the same effect.  Just as the machines don't need the assistance today over here the bottles might not need it now over there... possibly a time specific detail.

I'm aware that dynamic braking could also be an issue in this... For me it raises the question of whether the locos on such moves would have dynamic brakes... and also how much use they would be on pretty short, flat, not-very-fast runs???

Then again there might be a question of tieing the cars down with enough brakes when they're not hooked up to locos - which will be when they're empty... so they won't be so heavy.

Obviously there is a lot of conjecture here... what I would really like is more information from people with experience of the real things... PLEASE! 

[GP40_4333]

 A better place for this info is the Yahoo STEEL group. Very active group. Search for bottle cars, hot metal, etc. Most of these questions have probably been answered there. One practice I've heard of but wasn't mentioned was placing an engine at each end on the mainline moves. This is done to add braking capacity. The trailing loco is not pushing, it's more of an anchor

[Fred Boyer]

While working on the Grasselli Tower move, we had several of these trains going tlhrough the interlocking.  The gondolas are used for weight distribution over bridges and are before the locomotive(s) and each car.  They have a 4 hour window they try to maintain from furnace to pour.  6 hours starts the emergency move,  after 8 hours, they would have to scrap out the car. 

 The moves we saw were on the IHB, about January last year, the requirement stopped due to business decline.  I see that Mittler has reopened their blase furnace, so they could be back running again. 

If I remember right, part of the move included some trackage rights on CSX starting at Calumet Tower, so they would have to be acceptable to that railroad.  CSX has some of the tightest requirements for freight car standard in the industry.  i.e., they will not accept older closed roller bearing trucks at all, even for a one-time move of eqjuipment going to a museum.

They are heavy, and even from the tower stair, we could feel the radiated heat across the double track right of way.

For photo go to www.grassellitower.com

[EM-1]

In all the years I've lived in a steel-producing city, I've only seen a bottle car once.  Apparently they were replacing the firebrick lining.

Did I notice in the photos that many of the bottle cars were NOT using roller bearing trucks?

I have seen slag pours many times.  Very impressive.  Lots of light and smoke at night.  I believe Toni Morrison actually referred to it in one of her novels.  I used to walk through parts of the neighborhood she writes about.Saw a lot of movies in the theater she mentions, and shopped in a couple of  the stores.

The slag trains I used to see had 12 to 20 cars.  Each car was dumped individually.  Somwtimes each would be partialy cycled a couple times, banging the rim against the stops apparently to make sure nothing was sticking inside the thimble.  There was always at least one, sometimes 2 or 3 spacer cars  between the loco and the first thimble car.

As far as bottle cars moving over main lines, for a while a couple years ago, our town's blast furnaces and BOP shop were providing steel for a plant in the Flats in downtown Cleveland, a run of maybe 26-30 miles, but now we get the steel from a plant in Canton, Ohio, almost 60 miles.  The local plant has been on cold shutdown for over a year, but they have been calling people back, and I have heard they might start reheating the blast funaces as early as next month.  And the reheat can take sevral weeks to a month.

I have seen MR run prototype articles on many types of cars, I kind of wish they'd come up with something on the slag and the bottle cars.  I have a dozen or so slag cars, and a couple bottle cars.  I'd like to get a better idea of how to set up the platform that wasn't in the kits I built.

The pictures above were nice to have as a guide for color and skull.  Thanks.

[SouthFlatts]

Hot metal cars at one time were restricted to interplant switching only. When mills started closing the need for metal to other plants became important so hot metal cars were refitted to hit the mainline.

Most ladels (hot metal cars) had to have their brake systems reworked as most didn't function all they ever did was go up and back in the mill and when spotted the wheels were blocked they had no airbrake system.

They do have markings most with an X after the reporting marks.

The gondolas between the ladels are for weight restrictions on bridges the ones next to the locomotive and caboose was for crew safety. The metal trains ran at no particular time schedule.

Metal stays HOT for quite awhile. There was no special power assigned to metal trains. The most I have seen run in one train was six ladles with the appropriate amount of spacers in between. When the cars were empty they were put back with their spacers and returned to the same mill they originated from.

Yes they operate over public crossings just like any other train. Other than I believe they have a speed restriction but that would depend on the railroad and the track they are running on.

I hope this helps you some

[Dave-the-Train]

SouthFlatts

When mills started closing the need for metal to other plants became important so hot metal cars were refitted to hit the mainline

  What sort of date would this be please?  Would it apply (roughly) around 1985? 

Someone mentioned (IIRC) 2 hour, 4 hour and 6hour timescales with a comment that (IIRC) over 4 hours the move would become an "emergency move".  Would I be right in thinking that this would mean that the train would get priority over everything else except a wreck train going to clear the line?

It has also occured to me to wonder what would happen if a bottle car (or two) couldn't get to where it was supposed to go, due to a wreck or bridge out... could it go back where it had come from and be unloaded there?

I want to thank everyone that has contributed so far...

Thanks

[Fred Boyer]

According to the IHB people, if it don't get there on time, they dig a big hole and push it in.  If the metal cools enough, the cost of recovering the material would be more than the material is worth.

[caldreamer]

Bottle cars can move between a plant with a furnace and one that has mills to produce steel products.  They are speed restriced due to their weight.  They are priority moves since the steel will only stay liquid for a limited time, after which the car and load are useless.  The spacer cars are there not so much to distrubute the weight as for safety since the hot metal is at 2500 degrees.  Your can feel the heat a distance from the train.  I have never seen a caboose used on a hot metal train, though that does not say that it cannot or has not happened.

    Caldreamer

   

[caldreamer]

• • Are they run under special rules? Yes, If re running between plants that have a ffurnace and one that has the mills, they will move as soon as the bootle cars are lodded.  They will keep the metla hot for a number of hours, but must get to thiei destination as soon as  possile.
  • Are they run as high/wide/heavy/special loads? Yes thiey are very heavy, when loaded. That is one reason that the spacer crs are placed between the bottle cars to help distribute the weight.
  • Do they havey/ have to have a caboose?                                         No, the do not have to have a caboose, depends on the railroad as whether one is assigned or not.
  • Can they run any time?  On a strict schedule or ad-hoc as extras?                                                              They will run when the mill making steel from the pig iron will need the hot metal.  Furnacs are tapped every 8 or 9 hours, and as stated above they will keep the metal hot for quite a few hours.     
  • Are they restricted from passing other trains - such as passenger trains or tank cars?                       Yes, they cannot pass passenger or trains carrying certain hazardous materials.     
  • Do they have to run point-to-point or can they be shuffled about some?  (I know that they have to get to destination with a hot load before it stops being hot enough to pour out of the car)     They would be emptied at thir destiantion returned empty to the furnae for refill.  Skull (cold metal around the puringspout has to cleaned off when it gets too heavy, so such a cr wouldbe out of service untill cleaned.
  • Do they get prioritised?  (So that they can get to destination before cooling).                               There usually is plenty of time to get them from the furnace to mills before the hot metal cools.  BUT they run at a slow rate of speed, so movement is of the essesence.                                         
  • Are empty returns dealt with differently?                                                                     
  • Do they have special requirements - such as at Grade crossings... are they allowed over public Grade crossings?                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
  • Do they have specific power requirements?  Like extra power to make sure they will not conk out en route?                             No,  they have the same restrictions as any other train.
  • Are they speed limited?               Yes, as stated above they run at a slower speed, due to heavy weight.                      
  • Is there a maximum number of cars in a movement?  Loaded?  Empty?                                        No, the number of cars are based upon the needs of the mills.                           
  • Are trains always made up of the same kind of car?
  • Not necessarily.  It would depend upon how much hot metal the mills need.  For example could be a mix of 165 and 168 ton capacity cars.
  • Are the cars stencilled / numbered in the same way as ordinary cars?
  • No.  They would just have a number if it has not been burned off by the heat.  Hot metal is at least 2500 degrees faranheight.
  • • Anything else I should have asked about?                            Not that I can think of at this time                                                                           Information from The Making And Shaping Of Steel 19th edition as well as railroad epecial instructions.                                                                                             

[BigDaddy]

Dave the Train, the OP, hasn't posted in 6 years.  His questions have been thoroughly answered.   Time to stick a fork in this thread and call it done.