Brakie, thanks for helping to prove my point.
As far as self-clearing, I'll agree human invervention is needed to open hopper doors.
Mark
Again let us turn to the prototype for the facts.
Here's what they call a bottom dump woodchip car and its not your standard hopper car.
http://www.csx.com/?fuseaction=customers.search_car&n=Bottom%20Dump%20Woodchip%20Hopper
Here's the rotary car definition..They called it a gon..
http://www.csx.com/?fuseaction=customers.search_car&n=Rotary%20Dump%20Woodchip%20Hoppers
As far as "self clearing" I suppose both are-one is emptied through the bottom and the other gets rotated--kind of a fine line and either would be correct.
There is no such thing as a self unloading car-it will require help.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Just received the following messages on whether those cars are hoppers or gondolas.
On Oct 26, 2009 1:42 PM, Tony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:> Mark, I'm not sure about contemporary usage, but traditionally>you are entirely right. The definition of a hopper is a self-clearing>car. But I suppose CSX or anyone could maintain that an inverted or>tilted-end dumping car sure is self clearing. My own view is that,>as you say, such cars are not SELF unloading. Not sure the AAR codes>would help, but I can provide if you want.Most (if not all) of CSX's coal gons are AAR Type E100, "Equipped Gondola,Inside Length: Less than 48ft," like this one:CSXT 386238:http://drolsen.rrpicturearchives.net/rspicture.aspx?id=439142I could see calling them "hoppers" from a marketing standpoint since the generalpublic probably doesn't understand the distinction, but I'd guess themaintenance people still call it a gon.Dave OlsenGeorgetown, TX
BRAKIE What is so hard in understanding what NS and CSX wrote? NS even provided a diagram so their customer would know the car type!
What is so hard in understanding what NS and CSX wrote? NS even provided a diagram so their customer would know the car type!
I understand them perfectly. But as I said, they are marketing people. I place more trust with serious students/researchers of railroads.
As I mentioned before, someone show the ARA car-type codes for specific cars to prove us (me, John, Tony, Dave, etc.) wrong. Does anyone have a contemporary car registry? Mine is a 1953 version and is out of date.
http://eaneubauer.ipower.com/mech.pdf
Mark,Frankly I will go with the real railroaders after all its their job and they know the tools of their trade especially customer service since they recommend and fill the car orders for the customers including new rail customers.
IF I was a new rail customer guess who I will turn to? Not the model railroad book authors because like all "experts" they complicate the simple and overstate the obvious.
What do marketing folks know? They aren't railroad men.
John Armstrong's The Railroad, What It Is, What It Does, 5th edition (2008) has a section describing major car types. Under coal, it describes bottom-dump hopper or high-side solid-bottom gondolas as coal carriers. The book doesn't mention wood chips, but I believe the same descriptive principle would apply. This authoritative source is consistent with what I've ever learned about railroads: a hopper needs to be self-clearing.
Also, here is an excerpt from Kalmbach's The Model Railroader's Guide to Industries Along the Tracks, page 47: "... increased use of rotary dumpers by power plants resulted in increased use of large gondolas (with no bottom discharge doors) for unit-train coal service." (emphasis added)
Further, here is a quote from Kalmbach's The Model Railroader's Guide to Industries Along the Tracks 2, page 56: "Modern wood chips cars are among the largest railcars in operation. These large gondolas, with a topihinged door on one end, came into popular use in the 1960s." (emphasis added)
In addition, Anthony Thompson's authoritative multi-volume Southern Pacific Freight Cars is consistent with the above.
Thus, I still hold to my original thesis that people often misuse the term "hopper" when describing a gondola, and that is the source of the confusion.
Modelers need to learn railroad speak based on railroad logic..
Let us turn to the prototype to see what they say.
Per CSX:
Woodchips: Bottom drop or Rotary Dump Woodchip Hopper..
Sounds straight forward and easy to understand.See:
http://www.csx.com/?fuseaction=customers.acquanted#DOC26911
---------------------------
As per NS.
Woodchip:Hopper:Discharge Rotary Dump or Gravity Feed..
Sounds plain enough.
See: http://www.nscorp.com/nscorphtml/equipment/woodchip_hopper.pdf
See we found the terms they use in railroad/customer speak....
Dave-the-Train The thing is... they all seem to be called "Woodchip Hoppers" and not "Woodchip Gons". I've noticed this particularly because I want to get more of the type with proper hopper doors in the floor and they are really awkward to identify on EBay. Plus almost all of the models are of the other types. So, anyway, does this mean that woodchip "cars" are the exception that proves the rule?
The thing is... they all seem to be called "Woodchip Hoppers" and not "Woodchip Gons". I've noticed this particularly because I want to get more of the type with proper hopper doors in the floor and they are really awkward to identify on EBay. Plus almost all of the models are of the other types.
So, anyway, does this mean that woodchip "cars" are the exception that proves the rule?
What does the railroad classify them as a hopper or a gon? Railfans might call them "hoppers" but that doesn't make them hoppers. Technically, as Mark alluded to, a hopper car is a self clearing car.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Dave-the-Train "If it has doors to unload in the bottom of the car its a hopper. So, what I've been wondering is... The huge woodchip cars (such as those made by Walthers and LBF?EC Shops) come with bottom doors - okay, so those are hoppers - OR they come with no bottom doors with either no doors at all, presumiably rotary, or end doors for end dumping. The thing is... they all seem to be called "Woodchip Hoppers" and not "Woodchip Gons". I've noticed this particularly because I want to get more of the type with proper hopper doors in the floor and they are really awkward to identify on EBay. Plus almost all of the models are of the other types. So, anyway, does this mean that woodchip "cars" are the exception that proves the rule?
So, what I've been wondering is...
The huge woodchip cars (such as those made by Walthers and LBF?EC Shops) come with bottom doors - okay, so those are hoppers - OR they come with no bottom doors with either no doors at all, presumiably rotary, or end doors for end dumping.
It is a puzzlement. Lots of things make little sense to me. In this instance, my guess is that all modelers and manufacturers don't carefully observe official definitions.
By the way, there were gondolas with doors on the floor for unloading. However, they were still considered gondolas and not hoppers because they weren't totally self-unloading. Someone needed to push the contents over the door openings.
I'm really not being awkward...
I've copied this from the very interesting "unit Coal Train" thread...
" markpierce: Wait just one minute. I thought hopper cars had openings/chutes so they can be self-unloading. An open car requied to be turned upside to unload because it has no chutes doesn't sound like a hopper car to me. In my mind, such a car is a gondola. Seems to me that just because a type of car carries products typically carried by traditional hopper cars doesn't make that car a hopper. Someone providing the appropriate ARA car-type code might calm my befuddlement".
"If it has doors to unload in the bottom of the car its a hopper.
Whether or not it can rotary dump has nothing to do with whether its a hopper or a gon, both types of cars can be equipped with rotary couplers".
Thanks
PS Do the rotary woodchip cars have rotary couplingsat one or both ends? I've not noticed one end of these cars being painted a different colour in the same way that rotary coalcars are painted...