In Vancouver the trains carrying mail would use a long passenger platform at the CP station down at the water front. The mail was dumped down a shoot into a tunnel under the station and would go by a conveyor belt for about 2 kilometers up to the main Vancouver post office. I have been in the tunnel a few times as it is still there, and is used a lot for filming movies. It must have been lousy duty for postal workers who patrolled the conveyor system as it was a dark, dingy place to be. I think the Post Office stopped using it in the late sixties as airmail took over. But the cost to implement such an operation with this long tunnel solely for the movement of mail speaks volumes as to the amounts of mail the railroads once moved.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Mark Pierce wrote: "Headend traffic [on SP's Sunset Limited"] increased with the end of the mail/express train Argonaut in 1958."
You bet it did. In the early 1960s the Sunset often ran in and out of New Orleans with 20 or more cars, including a substantial number of nominal baggage cars carrying mail and express. These trains had to use New Orleans Union Passenger Terminal's longest platform tracks, 11 and 12. So long,
Andy
Andy Sperandeo MODEL RAILROADER Magazine
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/passconsist often lists consists for various roads and trains. Newspapers, magazines, and catalogs are among other items often carried in head end cars. For some roads, it's not unusual for a full "head end" train with possibly a "rider coach" at the end.
Cal
The only true, ocean-to-ocean, single-railroad U.S. train route I'm aware of was between Los Angeles and New Orleans. Southern Pacific's (with its Texas & New Orleans subsidiary's) Sunset Limited ran between New Orleans and Los Angeles (originally NO, LA, and San Francisco). June 2, 1946 and February 1, 1955 train consists (see http://espee.railfan.net/sunset-limited.html) included few headend cars: 1946 -- one baggage car, 1955 -- one RPO/Baggage and one Baggage/Dormitory. Headend traffic increased with the end of the mail/express train Argonaut in 1958.
Mark
I found online a list of IC passenger train consists from October 6 and 7, 1946 at the Memphis station, here is an example of a train carrying cars from other railroads:
October 7, 1946
Train 15 departed Memphis at 4:45 pm, on time
Engine 1191 (this was a 4-6-2 Pacific)
IC 6654 (box express according to my IC passenger car roster)
C&NW 15356 Milk - Baton Rouge
NRC 759 Milk - Baton Rouge
PRR 53991 Express - New Orleans
NYC 2936 Express - New Orleans
IC 964 Express - New Orleans (combination baggage and passenger)
IC 368 RPO - Memphis (Mail, express)
IC 2910 (coach)
IC 3211 (coach, compartment)
IC2727 (coach)
IC 3901 (this number isn't on my 1944 passenger roster, but by the number sequence it's either a cafe, lounge or diner)
markpierce So, I presume Canadians have a special feeling for the CP. Mark
So, I presume Canadians have a special feeling for the CP.
Yep. CP is responsible for a lot in the formation of Canada and it's history. It is very much imbedded into the fabric of the country. The sad part for me is that as new generations come along it has fallen from the day to day inclusion it once had.
This morning I saw part of the Canadian Pacific Railroad feature on History Channel today. Its central theme was that the CP was critical for the formation of the Canada nation. Without the CP, British Columbia could be part of the U.S. since its economic base was tied to Alaska and the U.S. West Coast. So, I presume Canadians have a special feeling for the CP.
Thanks Mark and others. Lots of food for thought on the responses posted.
After my original post I came across a photo of the Canadian. It had two baggage cars and fourteen others for a total of sixteen all together.
When I was a kid CN ran a train from Winnipeg into the Ontario lakes district.There were no roads to most of these lakes. The train was called the "Campers Special". What an interesting train it was. Lots of box cars and baggage cars and a whole lot of coaches carrying campers to all the lake cottages along the way. Our stop was Ottermere ONT.
It was a big social event to meet the train in the evening. People would head off across the lake in their boats after dinner to meet the train. The moms always had pies and other deserts to add to the fun. When the train arrived new boats and motors, canoes, new coal oil refrigerators, wood stoves, store supplies and mail would come off the baggage cars, while lumber, bags of cement and other building supplies would come off the boxcars. This would happen in record time with all hands pitching in to unload by hand in record time. It was CN's main line so they couldn't stop for long. Fond memories.
BATMAN I remember reading somewhere that on the Canadian they put one baggage car for every six passenger cars or part thereof.
I remember reading somewhere that on the Canadian they put one baggage car for every six passenger cars or part thereof.
I don't know how complete or realistic Rapido's Canadian offering is, but here is the list of cars offered which included only one baggage car (a baggage/dormitory combination). The prototype photo shown by Rapido doesn't show any other headend cars.
Canadian Pacific's 1953 order was for seven different car styles, and we're doing ALL of them: Baggage-Dormitory 60-Seat Coach SKYLINE Buffet Dome Coach 48-Seat Diner 4 Section, 8 Roomette, 3 Bedroom, 1 Drawing Room CHATEAU Sleeper 4 Section, 4 Roomette, 5 Bedroom, 1 Compartment MANOR Sleeper 3 Bedroom, 1 Drawing Room PARK Dome Lounge Sleeper
Canadian Pacific's 1953 order was for seven different car styles, and we're doing ALL of them:
Of course, a train's composition would usually vary over time.
Many railroads also had a "Fast Mail" train or several. They were priority trains that were among the hghest priority in the pecking order and often were made up of just mail cars with a single coach hung on the rear for minimal traveler comfort and only stopped where there was mail cars to pick up or set out. For all practical purposes they were limiteds. I once saw two AEM7 engines and one Amtrak mail car bewteen New York and Philadelphia blow by me while I was on I-95 like I was standing still. One look and I knew there would be no way to chase that train or ever hope to catch up to it.
When I was putting together a morning Hiawatha consist from the Walthers cars, a member of the PassengerCarList Yahoo!Group posted a typical early-to-mid 1950s consist that I used to choose which cars to buy. I ended up putting together a train as follows:
In the consist lists, occasional off-line storage mail or express cars appeared, such as a GN baggage car.
-Fritz Milhaupt, Publications Editor, Pere Marquette Historical Society, Inc.http://www.pmhistsoc.org
On the same Oakland-Portland route as the Klamath was the Cascade running on a faster schedule. Note the Cascade had only one headend car compared to the Klamath's ten.
Cascade consist from SP Equipment Circular #14 of 6/2/ 1946 is as follows:
One of my favorite passenger trains:
Here's an "official" fall/winter consist for the southbound Klamath leaving Portland in 1954. It's from the SP Equipment Circular No. 14, Correction 1224, dated October 1, 1954. All cars would have been heavyweight cars.
The northbound consist was similar except it picked up one Baggage & Express car at Eugene and none at Albany or Salem.
7j43kSPECULATION ALERT! Someday I hope to finish putting my model of GN's Western Star together (in the mid-sixties). There'll be lots of baggage/storage-mail and a trailer flat bringing up the rear, and coaches, a diner, and some sleepers. Ed
Ed
The "Western Star" here is in the final stages of construction. My version is from the late 1950's.
The consist is 14 cars and the Mountain series Obs is at the painter now,
The Western Star had several baggage cars on the head end of the train and later after the Obs car was dropped had not only baggage cars but express boxcars and reefers as well as piggyback flats. Just remember to have a "Rider Baggage" on the end.
My Star has the following consist
Baggage
RPO/Baggage
60 seat Coach
48 seat Coach (3)
Dinette/Dormatory
Diner
"Glacier" Pullman (2)
"Pass" 8-4-4 Pullman (2) The Empire Builder used 6-5-2 "Pass" series Pullmans
"Mountain " Obs-Lounge
Lots of good replies so far. Keep in mind also that on first class trains with overnight accomodations, passengers would not necessarily check their bags but store them in their rooms so there wouldn't as much need for dedicated baggage cars. In the waning years before Amtrak took over most of the intercity passenger service, many trains had become primarily mail and express movers with only one or two actual passenger cars.
Hi Brent,
As Tom Diehl pointed out, most so-called "baggage" cars were really in express or storage mail service. For that reason there isn't really a ratio of baggage cars to passenger cars, and there was a lot of variation depending on the particular railroad's practices. For example, even in the years when the Santa Fe ran dedicated mail and express trains between Chicago and Los Angeles, there would still be a few mail and express cars on trains like the Super Chief and the Chief, and even more head-end cars on the Grand Canyon.
And while it's true that many roads tried to limit the number of head-end cars on premier trains, this practice began to change in the 1950s and became especially pronounced in the 1960s. What happened was that as railroads trimmed their passenger service to suit declining ridership, they generally discontinued the secondary trains and kept the top trains in service. The head-end business formerly handled by secondary trains had to go on the premier trains, where in most cases it significantly improved the profitability of those trains. Especially in peak seasons, the number of head-end cars might match or exceed the number of passenger cars.
So long,
There's always exceptions, but generally a railroad's "premier" train didn't haul express or mail, so it didn't need much baggage space. New York Central's Twentieth Century Limited and Chicago & NorthWestern's Twin Cities 400 got by with combine cars with a baggage section. Usually a secondary train carried the mail and express.
For example, in the fifties-sixties Great Northern's premier Empire Builder and Northern Pacific's North Coast Limited might have one baggage car for 12-14 cars, while the Western Star and Mainstreeter (running the same routes on a different schedule) might be primarily baggage and express cars.
I recall that when the mail was taken off the railroads c.1967 the Mainstreeter dropped from like 16 cars to 6 cars. Before 1967, the Western Star sometimes was combined with the Fast Mail and would have like 24 cars, almost all baggage and express!!
It also depends on the railroad. The PRR carried huge amounts of mail between DC and New York as well as Chicago. In '63 I caught the Duquense in Lancaster, PA for Philadelphia that easily had 30 to forty cars of mail and express on the head end and six coachs on the rear.
Relatively little space was needed to carry baggage of the passengers. I can't imagine it normally filling one baggage car even on a long passenger train.
Baggage cars weren't limited to passenger baggage. They would carry baggage, pouch mail, and express. Some had more elaborate facilities to support the messenger/agent/baggageman and their work in particular cars. Cars would be sealed if they weren't loaded/unloaded at all during the journey. Others would be "working" so shipment contents could be added and subtracted enroute.
As mentioned before, premier trains usually had few such cars in their consists. Substantial "baggage" and express were most often shipped on secondary trains (which could include coaches, diners, sleepers, RPOs, and such) and to trains totally/almost totally for such shipments. Also, express box cars and reefers (superficially resembling freight cars but equipped with steam lines, signal lines, and high-speed wheel sets, and as such, defined as passenger cars) were also common to such trains.
Railway Postal Cars were moving post offices staffed by postal workers who sorted mail enroute. As implied earlier, RPOs weren't necessary if only pouched mail was handled. (A baggageman would drop off and pick up pouches enroute.)
Premier trains with little or no headend activity are boring. Trains carrying "baggage", express, and mail are much more interesting as they made more frequent stops and often picked up and dropped off cars enroute, as well as having more varied consist. Depending on routes/traffic, they could include cars from other railroads.
That would vary from one railroad to another, and one train to another on the same railroad. It may even change on the same train from day to day. You'll need to research your prototype.
One thing to remember, all head end cars are not necessarily dedicated to hauling passenger baggage, in fact most were not. Mail and express accounted for a big chunk of the income for a passenger train, and these cars can easily be confused with a baggage car. Because express shipments may be carried in the same car as the passenger baggage, there's no way to tell them apart form the outside. Most RPO's were of the same external construction and colors to blend in with the train, slight details would let you pick them out.
During heavy express traffic periods, such as before Christmas, there may be entire trains of nothing but baggage cars in the train for the express and bagged mail shipments.
There is a difference between Baggage Cars and head end traffic.
How many baggage cars would you see on a trans continental train in the fifties and sixties? I remember reading somewhere that on the Canadian they put one baggage car for every six passenger cars or part thereof. Would that be reasonable or am I remembering wrong.