I hope this is the right forum, question about really old steam engines

[Anonymous]

Ok, so I'm not much of a history buff, and I don't know the complete history of trains,... far from it. I just like to play with them.[:D]

Given this hobby of playing with trains, and my fondness of table top fantasy gaming, I decided to build a new prop for my gaming table. I want to build a dwarven steam train. I did a search on the idea, and the only thing I really found linked me to this forum, where someone else posted an idea of doing a diorama of a fantasy setting train.

I liked the idea of using an old train as a base, and remembered a picture I saw of an old engine, with one giant wheel on one side (like a paddle boat almost), which I can only assume was the drive wheel. So the engine was something like a 2-1-4 or some such If anyone has any idea about where I may have seen this train, or any leads to where I might find more leads I'd definatly appriciate it. Or even any tips or ideas on how to build the train and its trailers. It doesn't need to be powered, (though that could be cool too).

Any feedback would be greatly appriciated!

[M636C]

kylevp,

You have come to the right place!

I'm pretty sure that what you remember is Richard Trevithick's Penydarren locomotive, which dates to 1804, so this year is its 200th anniversary. In fact, the illustrations, and a complete reconstruction of the original locomotive are based (apparently) on a good drawing of an earlier, but unbuilt design. The reconstructed locomotive is supposed to run in England this year, and photos should be available.

There were illustrations, and a (very small) reproduction of a drawing of the locomotive in earlier issues this year of the English "Railway Magazine", and I'd recommend that you contact them for a back issue of their "200 years of Steam" special issue.

In fact, the locomotive was an 0-4-0, but had only a single cylinder, and the big wheel on one side was a big flywheel that didn't contact the rails (or the ground) although it came close to touching the ground. The complication was the amazing set of rods that linked the cylinder to the wheels, and making a working model of that might be difficult. A static model, or maybe a working model with simplified rods would be easier.

Anyway, with the name "Trevithick" and the date 1804, you might have a more successful web search. It should be illustrated in most books covering really early locomotives.

If you live close to Baltimore MD, the B&O museum have some real very early locomotives (from the 1830s and 1840s) .These would be a great help for to you to see the real thing. There are good photos of them in several books on early locomotives.

Anyway, welcome to the forums, and if you need more information just ask. There are a lot of here who can help!

Peter

[Anonymous]

Found some sketches of the locomotive your speaking of, and it is similar to what I was looking for. It isn't quite it though. The Large wheel on that locomotive extends in front of the engine, and thats not how I remember it. However, it very well could be that the large wheel I'm remembering was a fly wheel instead of an actuall one that touches the track. The information was very helpfull, any other ideas of other steam engines with similar large wheels on one side?

[jrbarney]

Kyle,
Your question is intriguing. Your engine might be a Crampton which typically had single drivers of 84 inch diameter. Examples are the Liverpool of the London and North Western Railway, the Kinnaird of the Dundee and Perth Railway, the Lightning of the Utica and Schenectady Railroad, No. 30 of the Camden and Amboy, or No. 2002 of the Bristol and Exeter Railway ( which was 7 foot gauge). It might be a Problem Class 2-2-2, such as No. 610, Princess Royal of the London and North Western Railway, or a Stirling 4-2-2 such as No.1 of the Great Northern Railway with 97 inch diameter drivers.
I found these examples in two books in my personal library, but you might be able to borrow other copies on Inter Library Loan at your local public library. One book is The Lore of the Train by C. Hamilton Ellis, Crescent Books, ISBN 0-517-11268-X. The other is The Great Book of Trains, Brian Hollingsworth and Arthur Cook, Salamander Books Limited, ISBN 0-517-18462-1. The famous John H.White, Jr. also did a pamphlet for the Smithsonian on American "single" locomotives which I have, but I believe it is out of print.
Maybe you can learn more about these with a "Google" search.
Bob
NMRA Life 0543

[ndbprr]

Another source is Goerge Abdils book "a Locomotive Engineers Album" long out of print but he had all kinds of weird engines in there. I have a copy but couldn't begin to tell you where to look today. It was published in the late 50's and had an orange and black dust jacket.

[Anonymous]

You mightvtry looking for a book on Very early Steam locomotives at your public library, most of the very strange looking ones were dione in the very early days, after 1850 everything started to look pretty standard, but before 1850 you had vertical boilers, Stagecoaches, Side mounted boilers, odd wheel placements and even odd wheels (a 20" set, then a 87" set, then a 40" set all on the same loco) your giant wheel seems to fit in with zoo of early Locomotives.

Jay

[Dallas Morlan]

Try this link http://www.americanhistory.si.edu/onthemove/collection/object_799.html Shows a model of the "Brother Jonathan" a 4-2-0 with a 4 wheel tender that makes it look like a 4-2-4. if this is what you are looking for searching with "Brother Jonathan locomotive" may provide you with more information.

[Dallas Morlan]

Just a bit more searching located a photo of a full size reproduction of the Penydarren mentioned above. There is also a short history on the same site at: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/RApenydarren.htm

[Anonymous]

A strange looking engine but interesting never the less.

Isn't it funny how the steam engine and coaches evolved over the years. They were not always what we think they were.

I think history is very interesting and that includes railroad history.

Thanks for bring this up and sharing the link and photo with us. [:)]

[Anonymous]

There is a old French Steam tractor created to tow Artillery peices in the mid 1800's jest when the Railroads were becoming important. The steam tractor was built mainly of wood. It is illustrated in a childs book "Trains" and I cannot now begin to tell you where it may be in the internet. It did have a large pot at the front and would look like something used in your Fantasy gaming.

My LHS has a bit of gaming stuff and I will ask the owner about this. He may look at me like I just lost a wheel and a journal box but we will see what we come up with.

[Anonymous]

wow. Lots of good info here![:D]
I also appriciate you checking with your friend dispite the fact that he may send the folks over with strait jackets!

Keep me and my "fantasy railroad" in mind as your doing your stuff guys, all this is much appriciated!

[Jetrock]

Perhaps something like this??

http://www.visithumboldt.com/loggingmuseum/images/falk.gif

The image is kind of small--it's a narrow-gauge logging locomotive. The big gear on the front is for a winch run off the steam powerplant, rather than a driving wheel. Perhaps this is what you're thinking of?

[leighant]

Supreised nobody mentioned there was a plastic model construction kit for the Trevithick loco-- I built one twenty or thirty years ago-- long gone. I wonder if you could find an old kit (unbuilt?) on one of the web auction sites?

[randybc2003]

The loco in the "Humbolt" link is a Gypsy.

the Loco w/ the large drive wheel could also be one pictured in G. Abdil's "Pacific Slope Railroads". I think it is Central Pacific's "C.P. Huntington" If you want to get a look, check your (good sized) public Library, or search his name at
www.alibrus.com
Check also a city's good second hand book shop.
Good Luck!
Randy B.C.

[Anonymous]

The CP Huntington is a bicycle (1 driver--4-2-4 non-rigid-frame tank engine - i.e. a pivoting pilot truck - if I remember correctly), and I'm pretty sure it is at the Calif State RR museum. SP kept it around for years and took it to exhibitions. You should be able to find loads of photos of it, even under steam. It doesn't have a giant driver, but in this day and time it would be unique, although it wasn't the only one. The British had a number of rigid frame 2-2-2 passenger bicycles that ran for years, and photos of those are also available--these had relatively big drivers and many were inside-cylinder. The real killer was that they had very little tractive force and when the cars got heavier, they couldn't get even a normal train over the line.

Hope this helps. Happy hunting.[:)]

[Anonymous]

You may be remembering one built in France"I think". It was I think, a 4-1-4. The driver was 9' tall and had no flange. If I remember correctly the article said the driver had a traction tire. It was built as an atempt to get very high speed. Try a google search for odd locomotives. There is a site that has a whole slew of them on it.

[van buren s l]

A few years ago in Garden Railways , perhaps 2001 or 2002, there was an article featuring some scratch built locomotives made by one of the subscribers. One of the locos was an amazing fantasy model. You may want to check the Garden Railways forum to locate the article.
Bob

[BRJN]

If you want something to DO with that dwarven steam train, look up "Lawrence of Arabia" at the library for ideas. B.H. Liddel Hart's book on Lawrence includes things the movie couldn't.

I suggest you get a book on early steam locomotives (1820-U.S. Civil War) and let your imagination go. Given a dwarven (and maybe gnomish) builder, you can put big flywheels, levers, bellows, and anything you want anywhere you want, so long as the engineer can see where he is going.

Also watch a copy of "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang" for some ideas of how to decorate the locomotive.

[Anonymous]

You might also want to look at an English cartoonist by the name of ROWLAND EMMETT who drew wonderfully fanciful steam paraphenalia from the '30's to the '70's. He has some marevellous ideas.

[prfedd]

You might try the CNW HS for pictures of the "Pioneer" of the old Chicago and Galena Union. This was a predecessor of the CNW. It had one large driving wheel and it was purchased from some where in England.