BRAKIE Mark,Actually the so called "transition era" was also boring..You seen basically the same locomotives on every railfan outing..The exciting times was the early 60s with the coming of the second generation.Here was a all new design unlike the common cab units and road switchers seen every day..Even the new yard switchers(SW1000 and SW1500) was a new design plus you had the new Alco Century line plus GE units.
Mark,Actually the so called "transition era" was also boring..You seen basically the same locomotives on every railfan outing..The exciting times was the early 60s with the coming of the second generation.Here was a all new design unlike the common cab units and road switchers seen every day..Even the new yard switchers(SW1000 and SW1500) was a new design plus you had the new Alco Century line plus GE units.
Brakie, I'm not going to "bite" on this one because both you and I know the transition era was the most varied.... Thank goodness you didn't bring up the topic of toilets.
Mark
markpierce MJ4562So was there any reason to buy dedicated switch engines in the diesel era? Why did railroads continue to buy them even after roadswitchers proved their superior flexibility? This partly explains why modern railroading is less interesting compared to other eras: little variety and specialization in locomotives. There are so few locomotive builders, locomotive types, and customizations. Where are the Alcos, the Baldwins, the Fairbank-Morses, the cabless units, and so on and so on. Mark
MJ4562So was there any reason to buy dedicated switch engines in the diesel era? Why did railroads continue to buy them even after roadswitchers proved their superior flexibility?
This partly explains why modern railroading is less interesting compared to other eras: little variety and specialization in locomotives. There are so few locomotive builders, locomotive types, and customizations. Where are the Alcos, the Baldwins, the Fairbank-Morses, the cabless units, and so on and so on.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
KIM most railroads bought diesel switchers in the steam era...for many (most?) railroads their first diesel purchase in the thirties or forties were diesel switchers. Unlike steam switchers that could only work so many hours, then had to go to the roundhouse, the diesel switchers could work continously with relatively little maintenance needs. Many of these switchers ran for decades; by the time they needed to be replaced, railroads weren't buying diesel switchers anymore.
Steve_FAlco Vs EMD, sorry nothing to do with toilets. http://utahrails.net/articles/alco-v-emd.php
http://utahrails.net/articles/alco-v-emd.php
Thanks, that was a good read. The article stresses inappropriate "corporate culture", "myopia", and "denial" as causes of Alco's failure. Look at GM now. Same problems.
Excellent question that needs to be explored.
First we must look at the big picture..Back in the day there was rail served urban industrial complexes that had sharp curves and those areas was routinely handled by 0-6-0s and 0-8-0s.So,we can see the need for a diesel could handle these tight curves as well as yard and transfer work-the same work as the 0-6-0s and 0-8-0s was doing...So we see the likes of the early boxcabs and the early switchers from Alco,EMD,BLW FM,GE and Lima.
Still there was a need for a locomotive that would be a jack of all trades like the 2-8-0 and 2-8-2...Early attempts will include EMD's NW3 and NW5 which of course didn't fill the need.
Then Alco design the true Jack of all trade diesel and first true road switcher the RS1.
Today switchers handles a yeoman's job from urban industrial branches to branch lines..You see 'em in yard and transfer work...The same work their ancestors was design to do.
the railroads that could afford a bunch of special purpose locomotives tended to buy them for a particular purpose.
if you ever tried to switch cars in a flat classification yard with anything other than a regular switch engine, like say, an SW-7 you would know. Geeps were ok but the visability wasn't as good and covered wagons were downright dangerous. like air brakes on a turtle.
i have worked yard jobs where we were stuck with GP-7 or 9 and if it was turned long hood first, when the head man was down in between the tracks the engineer got tired of leaning out the window to see what the man on the ground was doing. my solution was to run him into a cut of cars pretty hard a few times and then he would start looking for my signals after he got up off the floor.
general purpose is kind of like a radial arm saw. it's main function is to saw wood. it will do a lot of other things if you use the differenct attachments but only in a half a**ed fashion.
grizlump
Steve_F Alco Vs EMD, sorry nothing to do with toilets. http://utahrails.net/articles/alco-v-emd.php
Actually the topic is about yard switchers versus road switchers in main line service not toilets..
And EMD had nothing to counter the RS1 and RS2 until the GP7 in 1949 since the BL2 was a failure...That 8 years after the RS1 and 3 years after the RS2...
So,we can see where the railroads started to favor road switchers for general service starting with the RS1 and RS2..
Alco Vs EMD, sorry nothing to do with toilets.
Well we can blame the Germans too, but they didn't attack Pearl Harbor.
AFAIK a good number of RS-1's were used in the US by the US military, some lasted many decades in govt service. After the war some might have gone to non-military agencies like TVA??
wjstixupjake Well I don't want to focus on the toilet issue too much, but I assume F-units, the first true mainline diesels, had one behind the cab or something? Would get kind of tiresome going up and down those step ladders. FT's had a toilet at the rear of the B-unit; they were originally designed to be used in A-B sets. I assume other F units had toilets too. http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/manual/ft-3766.gif upjake For example, in hindsight you look at the early RS-1 which looks like the perfect branchline diesel, and wonder why they didn't make record sales although most of the major roads bought a couple. I guess you can blame the Japanese. When the US became involved in World War 2, the government directed all new RS-1's to go to the military to use in the US and later to be sent around the world. (That's why early Russian diesels looked like Alco's, they copied RS-1's they got during the war.) IIRC the military even bought some (all?) of the RS-1's from the railroads that bought them before the war.
upjake Well I don't want to focus on the toilet issue too much, but I assume F-units, the first true mainline diesels, had one behind the cab or something? Would get kind of tiresome going up and down those step ladders.
Well I don't want to focus on the toilet issue too much, but I assume F-units, the first true mainline diesels, had one behind the cab or something? Would get kind of tiresome going up and down those step ladders.
FT's had a toilet at the rear of the B-unit; they were originally designed to be used in A-B sets. I assume other F units had toilets too.
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/manual/ft-3766.gif
upjake For example, in hindsight you look at the early RS-1 which looks like the perfect branchline diesel, and wonder why they didn't make record sales although most of the major roads bought a couple.
For example, in hindsight you look at the early RS-1 which looks like the perfect branchline diesel, and wonder why they didn't make record sales although most of the major roads bought a couple.
I guess you can blame the Japanese. When the US became involved in World War 2, the government directed all new RS-1's to go to the military to use in the US and later to be sent around the world. (That's why early Russian diesels looked like Alco's, they copied RS-1's they got during the war.) IIRC the military even bought some (all?) of the RS-1's from the railroads that bought them before the war.
I recall seeing a "commode" in the nose of a Fairbanks Morse C-liner on the NH.
Blame the Japanese? I'd rather blame the Germans. The RS-1's mostly (all?) went to defeat the Germans, by way of hauling freight up through Iran and into the Soviet Union.
Even so, I think the marketing of EMD may have beat Alco, rather than any particular merits of the competing engines. That is a complicated story that I don't know enough of to discuss. My impression is that EMD had a sales program that was rooted in selling automobiles.
MILW-RODRI know I will regret this but, where in the world is a toilet on an MP15 WSOR?
First door on the hood, outside the front door. Look directly below the horn.
After painting things look a little better in there.
On a GP or SD the toilet is in the short nose.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
4merroad4man One could argue that road switchers ended the era of specialization, where each type of locomotive had a specific job. RS and GP units could easily work locals, passenger jobs and do stints in the yard if need be, eliminating the need for specialized service locomotives to a certain extent.
One could argue that road switchers ended the era of specialization, where each type of locomotive had a specific job. RS and GP units could easily work locals, passenger jobs and do stints in the yard if need be, eliminating the need for specialized service locomotives to a certain extent.
Actually that started with the RS1 and RS2..It didn't take long for the railroads to realize these was a versatile locomotive that could be used in yard,passenger terminal,branch or main line service.
EMD entered the road switcher market late in the game and their first attempt failed.The BL2 was no match for Alco's RS1 and RS2.
MILW-RODR I know I will regret this but, where in the world is a toilet on an MP15 WSOR??? I've been close enough to a few of them to know there isn't much room in the cab. And honestly, if it was me, I'd rather go find a bush and a pinecone than use that toilet. Maybe I'm just picky about my toilets So one more thing to throw out there. I read the info somewhere that said one reason switchers weren't used on longer hauls is because of the lack of facilities, and going by another post that just isn't true. I just wanted to clearify that, it's not like I pulled that info outta my number 2. Where the facilities on....well road switcher no longer seems an approriate term...where the facilites on freight locomotives located in the short hood? Or am I missed informed on that too. I know EMD put steam generators in there on passenger GP7/9's and as I recall reading Alco followed suit. Could you imagine being on you know what and feeling the bump as the train ran over a Volkswagen?
I know I will regret this but, where in the world is a toilet on an MP15 WSOR??? I've been close enough to a few of them to know there isn't much room in the cab. And honestly, if it was me, I'd rather go find a bush and a pinecone than use that toilet. Maybe I'm just picky about my toilets
So one more thing to throw out there. I read the info somewhere that said one reason switchers weren't used on longer hauls is because of the lack of facilities, and going by another post that just isn't true. I just wanted to clearify that, it's not like I pulled that info outta my number 2. Where the facilities on....well road switcher no longer seems an approriate term...where the facilites on freight locomotives located in the short hood? Or am I missed informed on that too. I know EMD put steam generators in there on passenger GP7/9's and as I recall reading Alco followed suit. Could you imagine being on you know what and feeling the bump as the train ran over a Volkswagen?
This has been asked(and answered before) As I recall, the answer is behind one of the hood doors (3rd one forward IIRC) on the firemans side, ahead of the cab. Hey, I didn't claim that it would be an enjoyable experience.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
I guess I should keep in mind that diesel development was quite an evolutionary and experimental process. For example, in hindsight you look at the early RS-1 which looks like the perfect branchline diesel, and wonder why they didn't make record sales although most of the major roads bought a couple. But then it should be considered that steam was still widespread (mid-late 40s period) and the supposedly more reliable gp7 came some years later.
Operationally, some road switchers came in six axle versions with the center axle of each truck being an idler axle, so weight distribution was less, giving the six axle road switcher the ability to navigate lighter rail branches, i.e., the GMD-1's of Canada. Further, and without the weight considsiderations, the road switchers had a short hood which provided some crew protection in the even of collisions. While early on, trucks and speed were considerations, roads such as Southern Pacific simply applied road trucks, MU appliances and and such, and used many of their switch engines, notably the SW1500's for yard and local service.
Sometimes using road switchers backfired as in SP's Baldwin AS616's, as the trucks under them were far to rigid and abusive on the main track at higher speeds.
Further, road switchers tended to carry more fuel, have higher horsepower, more weight so not only better pay for the enginemen, but also a better factor of adhesion, and the engines were versatile, i.e., they could work locals by day and act as switch engines at other times. Switch engines, espcially the earlier ones, had an advantage over their ibgger cousins in that their wheelbase was much shorter and allowed them to sneak around tight curves on back alley leads and spurs with great ease.
wjstix Keep in mind too that back c.1941 the term and concept of a "road switcher" was not generally known...in fact I'm not sure the term even existed. To a steam railroad buying their first diesels in those early days, the difference between a switcher and road-switcher wouldn't really be apparent to their people. Heck, GN bought some EMD switchers back then to use on local passenger trains !! Alco "RS" (Road Switcher) designations were done sort of retroactively, their official model designations back in the day started with "DL" for Diesel Locomotive, like the DL-701 which is more commonly known as the RS-11.
Keep in mind too that back c.1941 the term and concept of a "road switcher" was not generally known...in fact I'm not sure the term even existed. To a steam railroad buying their first diesels in those early days, the difference between a switcher and road-switcher wouldn't really be apparent to their people. Heck, GN bought some EMD switchers back then to use on local passenger trains !!
Alco "RS" (Road Switcher) designations were done sort of retroactively, their official model designations back in the day started with "DL" for Diesel Locomotive, like the DL-701 which is more commonly known as the RS-11.
Absolutely.
Also the GP7 was originally design for branch lines after the poor sales of the problematic BL2.
One problem with finding the toilet / hopper in a caboose diagram is that since space was at a premium in a caboose, they sometimes had the a storage area up at eye level with the hopper underneath, so in a view from above it might not be visible.
Long-time NP conductor Warren McGee said that back when a conductor had his own assigned caboose, and lived there while on the road, that they rarely if ever used the caboose toilet due to sanitary / aroma issues. He said he used the "hopper" bowl to store fusees in. He was in a remote area (Montana) so the crew would do what they had to do off the back of the caboose...apparently leading to a few interesting (but probably not publishable) railfan photos!!
MP15ACs have a toilet. A bit cramped, but it is there for emergencies.
I have gone 30 mph glass end first in switchers.
The MILW used the MP15ACs in all sorts of service. They don't ride as well as a GP, and are a bit light, so they don't pull as much either. But for the traffic levels at the time, the MILW found them to work just fine, and cheaper on fuel to boot.
OK, so don't use the word "restroom", Good grief. Facilities for handling human waste, whatever they were euphemistically named, were found on nearly all cabooses until very recent times. I'll wager they were extant on that 1936 B&O caboose as well, even if not on the drawing.
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Funny, I can't find the head in a drawing of a 1936 B&O steel bay window caboose of (TS Cyc 11, Cabooses 1879-1943), but the others have them, clearly labeled "toilet" or "dry hopper". No rest rooms, no powder rooms either. The B&O caboose has detailed drawings with ice chest, lockers, wash stand, stove, fusee rack, lamp bracket, and other details drawn and called out, but nary a dry hopper to be found!
Some bad information being given here, along with much good. Virtually all cabooses had restroom facilities until very recent times. The idea that switchers weren't used over the road mainly because they lack restrooms is not correct -- after all, steamers had no restroom facilities.
Pure horsepower is not usually the issue, but gearing can be -- switchers were typically geared low and couldn't run at the speeds desired for main lines. Their trucks were also not designed for high speeds and some types gave a pretty rough ride at main track speeds.
Still, there are plenty of examples of switchers used in "main line" service -- but gearing and truck type, as well as whether they could be placed in multiple unit (M.U.) operation played a role.
The Ma&Pa bought 4 switchers in late 40's early 50's - SW1, 2 NW2s, SW9 for their 77 mile short line. The shorter length was an asset on a road noted for having many curves. On occasion they pulled the passenger train until it was discontinued. Speed was not an issue - it already was scheduled for 4 hours before the diesels came.
With the coming of these diesels they started to retire their steam locomotives, the last ones going in 1956.
Enjoy
Paul
upjake ...besides road-switchers having more horsepower...
...besides road-switchers having more horsepower...
As for switchers having power....CN used a WC SW1500 (I think #1538), an EMD unit with 1500 horses, and it was hauling away 26 cars. Being the direction it was coming from (away from the industrial district) and the way it was going (back to the yard) and knowing the industry it was switching at (Sannimax) every car was mostly likely full. It was mostly made up of PS2-CD 4750 hoppers and 20 000 galon series tank cars, but it also had a few box cars which were most likely empties from the home supply or Sanny, and about a dozen gondolas from the scrap yard, also presumed loaded. The crew guy checking his list looked at me kind of funny when I started talking about how amazing it was seeing a switcher handle all that.
I remember reading somewhere that one reason they didn't use switchers back in time on longer runs was because they didn't have full facilities aboard. And I just don't think a crew member would want to stand at the edge of the foot sill with his zipper down and suddenly come upon a grade crossing at 25mph. It would funny for everyone else, but not to him. I couldn't understand it, none of the cabeese I've been in have had toilets. I might have been in one that had a hole cut in the floor and a barrel missing both ends to sit on, but nothing more than that. I hope that's not what they called a toilet back in the good ole days (the good ole days refers to a time when the wonderous invention of diesel/electric powered locomtives were common and on the uprise, but beautiful steam driven locomotives could also be seen running a consist down the tracks. Man I wish I could go back in time and see that)
BRAKIE The SW1000,SW1500,MP15DC,MP15AC are capable of being used on the road just like a road unit.
The SW1000,SW1500,MP15DC,MP15AC are capable of being used on the road just like a road unit.
Actually, the MP15's are road versions of the SW1500. Longer frame to use the Blumberg road truck, and I think a larger fuel tank. And I think the AC had a toilet too.
Deciding factors between an S/SW and RS/GP for the railroad would have to be speed and unit availability. For the union / railroader it would be toilet and ride quality (and pay based on unit weight). The additional horsepower, if any, in a RS/GP would go to speed not tonnage.
There are several shortlines / company roads that ordered nothing but SW's and some even had dynamic brakes on their SW's.
Phil
Timber Head Eastern Railroad "THE Railroad Through the Sierras"
LOL Brakie! Hilarious. I have heard the number one for the coal pile and number 2 for the scoop.But wow I wouldnt want to use it afterwards!
Reason I used the toilet analogy is certain roads had union rules for it. I prefer being able to stop somewhere that has a gas station or fast food nearby lol.Hey I need a snack .Plus I worked the service track I see how the laborers clean.
Yes we are on time but this is yesterdays train