I have read some of the previous / archived posts relating to boxcars, but I would like to find out more about their return working. It appears that the boxcars equipped and specifically branded for the transport of Automobiles may have carried some auto-parts, or even long timber, on their return journeys. Was this the exception rather than the general rule?
I'm particularlry interested in those of the Wabash and Nickle Plate. I would have thought that those automobile boxcars of the Wabash could have carried the products of any of the Detriot maunfacturers, and similarly those boxcars of the Nickel Plate could have carried Willys-Overland/Kaiser/Jeep products out of Toledo. Were these cars returned directly to the point of origin? It would seem unlikely that they were treated as common pool vehicles. I am surmising that they may have been subject to a requirement for a prompt return, in a similar manner to the treatment of reefers.
I was also wondering why the Southern Pacific also had them. I have heard that there were auto assembly plants on the West Coast, but my knowledge of car construction in California is zero.
Looking forward to seeing your replies.
Ed Dyball,
In some cases auto parts boxcars were specially fitted for a particular model of car and would have been in dedicated service to that manfacturer, probably to a particular plant (so would have had the marking that used to be seen very often, something like "When Empty Return to XYZ Agent in {name of city}." Because of the cost of the interior fittings and the more urgent need for the car I suspect a backhaul was not done but was routed empty.
I think also there was a pooling arrangement so that for example if a shipment went from Detroit west to the coast, the railroads that participated in the haul would contribute cars roughly equal to their % of the haul. So I would not necessarily assume that an SP car would only serve a west coast plant.
Dave Nelson
Hello Dave,
Thanks for that information, it is just the type of thing I was looking for.
I can see how to some extent that fittings specifically relating to a particular automobile may well have been necesary and or desirable. When one takes into account differing wheelbase and track dimensions there could be numerous combinations, so perhaps it was a case where 'one-size-didn't-fit-all'.
I hadn't considered the aspect of pooling that you have mentioned, but it is entirely logical when one considers that the consists of some of the famous named trains, like the 'CZ', were made up of stock from multiple railroads, approximately in proportion to mileage the train travelled over their 'road.
Now I can justify buying that SP 50ft boxcar I have my eye on.
Thanks again,
Ed Dyball
siestaman wrote: Now I can justify buying that SP 50ft boxcar I have my eye on.
SP automobile cars had a horizontal white strip on the right-hand side door if they were internally equipped with something like Evans racks for supporting automobiles above another to increase carrying capacity. Those racks could usually be raised and folded to lie immediately underneath the roof if the box car was to be used to carry conventional loads.
Box cars used to carry automobile parts typically had specialized interior fittings to carry particular parts. Thus, these cars were used in pool service for a particular automobile manufacturer. This practice was increasingly followed beginning in the 1950s. Pooling of such cars was important since the manufacturer needed to be assured the cars were always available for their use. An entire assembly line could be shut down for absence of a car.
Mark
Double door "automobile" boxcars were at first used specifically for auto service, either complete cars or parts (like chassis being moved from one plant to another). However railroads and shippers quickly found out that unloading a double door boxcar - particularly with a load of something like 8' lengths of dimensional lumber - was much easier than squeezing everything thru a single door, and so began using double door "automobile" boxcars for other things, and buying new cars without the automobile racks etc. for use in general service.
BTW some automobile boxcars had end doors where basically the entire end of the car opened up.
wjstix wrote: BTW some automobile boxcars had end doors where basically the entire end of the car opened up.
... and something like a city bus could roll out.
Walthers published a useful book on rail service to the auto industry, called America's Driving Force. It is still seen a swap meets; I do not know if they still sell it. There was also an exceptional two part article by Jim Hediger in the May and June 1997 Model Railroader.
"No soup for you!" - Yev Kassem (from Seinfeld)
siestaman wrote: I was also wondering why the Southern Pacific also had them. I have heard that there were auto assembly plants on the West Coast, but my knowledge of car construction in California is zero. Looking forward to seeing your replies.Ed Dyball,
The term automobile box car came to mean any double door boxcar, especially 50'. The SP usually funneled empty 50' double door boxcars, all road names, to the northwest where they were favored for forest product loads. I worked at a furniture factory in Oakland CA and all lumber came in 50' double door box cars. We also shipped furniture in them.
Hope this helps, Rob
Automobile box cars are different than a standard double door 50' box car. They usually are 6-8" taller(so that the auto-loader hardware can fold up into the roof). A lot of auto box cars had the racks removed and were placed in lumber service in the 50's, as much new auto business went to trucks.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
Boxcars Lettered "Automobile"
If you have such cars on your layout you do not need to restrict them to carrying automobiles. Tony Thompson stated,
"A common misunderstanding. The word "automobile" on a car did NOT mean it was necessarily in that service. Until the early 1950s, the AAR defined an "automobile car" as a box car with double doors and possibly end doors. There is nothing in the definition about what the car might carry.
"You can see this in the fleets of many railroads. Certainly SP among them; usually about half of each order of 50-ft. DD box cars was intended for lumber service, but every single car was lettered "automobile." And when SP removed auto racks from such cars, they did not remove the "automobile" lettering, though they would paint out the white door stripes."
Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA
"Double door "automobile" boxcars were at first used specifically for auto service..."
Not true
Around 1905-10, it was just as likely a large boxcar would be carrying parts for carriages as well as for automobiles. Some railroads included furniture in the mix, and marked their cars "VEHICLE AND FURNITURE".
With the carriage trade disappearing, in 1917 the AAR adopted "AUTOMOBILE" as the standard marking for a boxcar with oversized doors. Cars marked "FURNITURE" were similar in design to a general service box car, but usually had greater cubic capacity.
Just to add some detail to the post, there were a number of automobile assembly plants in Southern California dating back to 1928. Below is a list, which may be incomplete. This list does not include several truck assembly plants that were located in Southern California as well.
++++
Southern California Automobile Assembly Plants
Chrysler
Commerce, 1929-1971
Ford
Los Angeles, 1916-?
Pico Rivera, 1957-1980
Long Beach, 1930–1959
Commerce (Lincoln-Mercury)
General Motors
South Gate, 1936-1982
Van Nuys, 1947-1992
Kaiser Frazer
Long Beach, 1947-1955?
Nash Motors
El Segundo, 1948-1955
Studebaker
Vernon, 1936-1956
Toyota (Truck Beds)
Long Beach, 1972-2004
Willys-Overland
Maywood 1928-1954
markpierce wjstix wrote: BTW some automobile boxcars had end doors where basically the entire end of the car opened up. ... and something like a city bus could roll out. Mark
Or a fire engine
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Northern California plants
Ford Motor Company Assembly Plant Ford Richmond CA 1930-1953 largest assembly plant on west coast
San Jose Assembly Plant Ford Milipitas CA 1956-1983
Oakland Assembly Plant General Motors (Chevrolet) Elmhurst CA 1916-1963
Fremont Assembly Plant General Motors (Chevrolet, Pontiac, Buick, Oldsmobile, and GMC) Fremont CA 1962-1982
NUMMI Fremont CA Joint venture GM and Toyota 1984-2010
siestaman I was also wondering why the Southern Pacific also had them. I have heard that there were auto assembly plants on the West Coast, but my knowledge of car construction in California is zero.
The further and further you go back in history, there's more and more regional assembly of automobiles.
For instance, Ford had a broad network of relatively small 5-6 story buildings scattered around the US that served showrooms on the first floor and assembly plants on the upper floors. They were generally just dealerships by WWII.