Just wondering........

[Jacktal]

On lots of photos of trains,it is common to see diesels working in pairs and even more,not being necessarily matched models.However,I've never seen any pictures of trains being hauled by more than one steamer...is it that it simply wasn't possible nor common practice?Or that I never happen to see any pictures of multiple steamers?Just wondering........

[Anonymous]

It all boils down to money. Whereas multiple diesels can be MUed together, and controlled by one crew, each steam locomotive had to have its own crew. Since the railroad has always been cheap, it preferred to only pay one crew, and therefore doubleheaded steamers only when absolutely necessary.

Also, because it required two crews, it was much harder to synchronize the locomotives. The crews would need to keep their locomotives at least pretty close to each other in speed, which was rather hard in the days before radio. Again, diesels are all controlled from one unit, so they all act as one.

[Anonymous]

Steam locomotives were much more powerful, on average, than the deisels which replaced them. They were designed to be able to haul their trains single-handed. Of course, this was not always possible, and helper districts were common in order to move a heavy load up a steep hill, but the difficulty of synchronizing the engines kept this to a minimum.

The modularity of deisels was a selling point; if a train needed to be extra long on occasion, one more unit could be added to the standard two or three unit lashup. They have always been designed to be able to handle about half a train on their own; the early F-units were almost always sold as sets of two to four units, and even given a common number with "A", "B", "C" style suffixes.

Personally, I like deisels because of this mix-and-match attitude; I like to come up with odd combinations to head up my trains. Plus, I model Norfolk & Western, which liked to run units long hood forward, yet had most engines delivered with dual control stands to permit running in either direction, which means even more variety.

[Anonymous]

Jack:

You haven't seen the photos. Was common practice to double-head and even add helpers in the middle of the consists as well as pushers at the rear.

Randy

[dehusman]

Some trains in the mountains could use as many as six or seven steam engines. One or two on the point, 2 or 3 cut in the middle and 2 or 3 on the rear.

Dave H.

[Anonymous]

With diesels you can MU them together but withh steam you can't

[Anonymous]

If you want to double head steam on a layout make sure you put the fastest in front (so as not to destroy the couplers). This's what I do with my 0-6-0 and my 4-8-2.

[orsonroy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 4884bigboy

If you want to double head steam on a layout make sure you put the fastest in front (so as not to destroy the couplers). This's what I do with my 0-6-0 and my 4-8-2.

This might work in model railroading, but it's exactly the thing NOT to do in real life. In reality, you want the slower, less powerful steamer in front, which then sets the pace. The stronger tail engines then follow the smaller engine's lead, making sure to not push it along.

[Anonymous]

I've seen a few photos of steamers and GP7s working together on a train - must have made synchronising control movements a little interesting. The diesels always seemed to take the lead when this was done.

[Anonymous]

Having been in a diesel's cab, I don't recall a very good way to control the speed other than the 8 or so power settings on the throttle handle. How does the engineer control the speed in different diesel engine types ( an SD-40 MU'd with a GP 18, let's say?

[Anonymous]

Diesels lead when working with steam due to the different ways diesels and steamers generate their power. With electric drive the highest torque is generated at zero revolutions. With steam the faster the engine is moving the higher its power output.

Leads to the seeming oddity: Diesels can move a train they can't pull and steamers can pull a train they can't cant move.

Randy

[DSchmitt]

I asked about the possibility of multiunt steam on the Trains forum several weeks ago. Got a couple good answers. See link below.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8259

[Anonymous]

The Great Western Railway (GWR) and the LMS, amongst others, did operate push-pull steam services on branch lines - coaches were fitted with driving positions to allow the loco to propel the coach and avoiding running around the train. I guess this sort of counts as steam MU operation, as the loco was being controlled remotely. Don't think they could use it for running two or more locos together though. Hornby make a 14xx class loco and matching "Autocoach"

[AntonioFP45]

Jacktal,

I am not a steam expert, though I do like steam but I have seen numerous pictures in books by Don Ball and in past Trains issues of:

Union Pacific, Southern Pacific, and the Pennsylvania railroads regularly double heading and even triple heading freight trains with steam locomotives through mountainous areas. Mid train pushers were also used. It was very expensive for the railroads.

[Anonymous]

I think would be hard to do with steam unless you used the same type engines,,two bachmann 2-8-0 ,or two bach.2-10-0 would work,, i tried a 2-8-8-2 with a bach. 2-10-0 pushing on thirty cars,,the big engine pulls the 2-10-0 ,,just my thoughts on subject...

[ndbprr]

Another reason is that the power output of a steam engine could be regulated through the adjustment of the steam cut off point to the cylinders. That meant that an engine could have 100% cut off to start a train or when climbing hills and the reduce it to say 20% to keep the train roling. This wa sa very ecomnomical method of operation and added great flexibility to the asignments of engines. Helpers were quite common and the PRR doubleheaded nearly every name train from Harrisburg west to maintain schedules all the way to Chicago and St. Louis. So it did occurr and there are lots of pictures out there.

[Anonymous]

Randy,

How can there be torque at zero revolutions? Granted, deisels develop full torque at low speed, but at zero?

Ed

[Anonymous]

A couple of years ago we rode on the Grand Canyon Railway from Williams Az. to the rim of the Grand Canyon. About a two hour & fifteen minute ride to the rim & a little longer on the way back because the outlaws stop & rob the train. On the point was , if I remember correctly , was a 2-8-0 Alco Steam engine & behind that was an FPA-4 Alco Diesel engine , I was told that they use it for extra power . I could see why when we got closer to the rim. & for if there were any break downs. So here's a good place to see steam & diesel working together . ofcourse........they also have radio communications nowadays too . But the sites & sounds were awesome. (www.thetrain.com)

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ebriley

Randy,

How can there be torque at zero revolutions? Granted, deisels develop full torque at low speed, but at zero?

Ed

Yes, an electric motor under power, but not turning, generates.......................HEAT!!!!

[Jetrock]

Some electric interurbans would "shuttle" steam engines through town--on cities with in-street trackage that banned steam engines, the electrics would take the lead and drag the deadheading steamer through town along with its train. Electrics could also operate in MU before the days of diesels...

[Dallas Morlan]

One of the photos in the Fall 2003 section at http://www.ocsteam.com/photos.html shows doubleheading steam during a photo excursion run. Admittedly this is a recreation for the photo opportunity. Just shows someone still knows how to get it done!

[Anonymous]

How about a threesome?

[pmsteamman]

As long as the locos can be mu'ed it does not matter if you have a AC6000 or SW-9. They are controlled buy a 18 pin connector (the large cable) that tells each loco to react, the locos then respond as if there is a engineer in each unit.

QUOTE: Originally posted by rt2907

Having been in a diesel's cab, I don't recall a very good way to control the speed other than the 8 or so power settings on the throttle handle. How does the engineer control the speed in different diesel engine types ( an SD-40 MU'd with a GP 18, let's say?

[Anonymous]

Even branch lines were often double headed w/ steam engines , esp if the RR used light weight rail, light duty trestles and bridges tight clearances and sharp curves negating use of heavier and long wheelbase locos. Good example is L&N old line Atlanta -Knoxville Division between Marietta and Knoxville (Hook & Eye Line) or Southern's Murphy Branch in western NC. - both relied almost exclusively on USRA light (or similar design) 2-8-0s, and only occasionally did a 2-8-2 venture onto portions only of each branch- their axle loadings (and overall weight) was just too high, so helpers were employed to spread the weight out. It was pure hell for crew in 2nd engine in tunnels due to fumes, smoke and heat when both engines were directly coupled together at front of consist. Spreading out power in mid section or at tailend probably helped a lot. I've seen old pics of 6,7,or even 8 dimunitiuve Colo, 3 foot ng 2-8-0s pushing a plow up a grade in deep snow-awesome sight-imagine the sounds. . .

[Anonymous]

One other thing, and its probably a bit obtuse and trivial - Baldwin diesels were unable to be mu'd with other makers of diesels due to Baldwin's air -operated throttle being not compatible with everyone elses' controls. Thus Baldwin diesels typically remained in A-B-A or similar (all Baldwin) hookups, while it wasn't uncommon to see EMD Fs & GPs mixed in w/ Alcos or anything else except Baldwins. Probably one of the reasons they soon were out of loco business. -- In case anyone wondered

[coalminer3]

Double-headed steam was common practice on the PRR, even with passenger trains.

Some of the "flatland" roads got in on it too, such as NKP and NYC. In many cases, though, it was a matter of moving excess power from one end of the road to the other.

The most recent issue of the Southern Pacific Historical and Technical Society's publication, Trainline, has an article by E.J. Gaede, title "A Night to Remember: Firing on No. 75." An interesting account of how it "really was" re' doubleheading. Well worth reading.

work safe