Seeking advice On Period Upgrades to Mikados

[Anonymous]

 

 I am currenty modeling the East bay/Sacramento Delta region of the country ca. 1950. N-scale

One of the four Railroad Companies the (BC & CS) is a free lanced effort.

That Railroad is almost finished converting to D/E engines but a few Steamers

still remain. Mikados's (B&O kato's, mostly)

Question, Assuming these relics still operate what would one look like if it was bought say in

1933-34 ? (I assume for a Steamer to be still reliable & still cost effective to maintain it can't be older than 18 years or so)

Is there a Website or Pic of an engine that is close to a B&0 Mikado (kato) that with minor alterations will give it a more correct period feel.?

 

 

Modeling the Berkely,Concord & Central Sierra RR   ca. 1950

 

 

 

 

[loathar]

http://www.castlegraphics.com/photo/thumbnails.php?album=8&page=1

Don't know if this will help or not.

[tstage]

Admiral,

This is more a prototype based inquiry so I've moved it to this forum.

Tom

[leighant]

I assume for a Steamer to be still reliable & still cost effective to maintain it can't be older than 18 years or so.

I wonder about that assumption.  Let me look at Santa Fe mikados...

882 class built in 1917 for PRR, acquired by Santa Fe in 1945 and rebuilt for WWII use, scrapped in 1947.

885 class built 1902-1903, scrapped 1947 through 1954

1798 built 1909 as articulated Mallets.  rebuilt as mIkados 1924, scrapped 1950-52

3100 class built 1913, scrapped 1951-1955

3129 class built 1916, scrapped 1949-54.

3160 class built 1917-1919, scrapped 1951-1955

4000 class built 1921-1926, scrapped 1952-1956

On the Santa Fe, looks like mikados stayed in service considerably longer than 18 years.  All were scrapped about the time steam was going going gone entirely on the system, not due to simple "age" but to account-book efficiency.

Your subtraction of a likely build date took you to 1933-34, the height of the depression.  Were very many freight locomotives being built then?  I know a few notable locomotive innovations were made then but weren't they deliberately notable? attempts to do something spectacular to generate excitement and, hopefully, a little business? 

 

 

 

[mmathu]

> Assuming these relics still operate what would one look like if it was bought say
> in 1933-34 ? (I assume for a Steamer to be still reliable & still cost effective to
> maintain it can't be older than 18 years or so) Is there a Website or Pic of an
> engine that is close to a B&0 Mikado (kato) that with minor alterations will give
> it a more correct period feel.?

Green Bay & Western's six 2-8-2s were built in 1937-1939 and remained in service until the spring of 1950:
greenbayroute.com/401build.htm

[wjstix]

Well here's a link to a pic of a DM&IR Mikado built in 1913, still in service in 1960....

http://www.missabe.com/mikado1301.html

This pic shows another 1913 DMIR Mike, this time in 1955. Like many engines, it picked up quite a bit of  additional piping and appliances over the years; as built these engines were very simple in appearance and had few external appliances and pipes.

http://www.missabe.com/mikado1304.html

The "life expectancy" of steam would be about the same as diesels, 40 years + wasn't unusual, some made it considerably longer. I think what might be confusing you is that so many steam engines that were built in the thirties-forties (especially during WW2, when railroads often had to buy new steam instead of the diesels they wanted) were scrapped by 1955-60 after only a decade or two of use. These engines were replaced because they were not as economical as diesels - but in many cases they weren't worn out or failing.

It's a shame that so many steam engines were scrapped when they were barely 'broken in' and were working fine. In 1950, the year you're modelling, the DMIR was still 100% steam...most of them dating back to WW1 or before, and still working great. The last steam hauled ore and freight trains on the Missabe came in 1960. When the Missabe bought it's 2-8-8-4 Yellowstones in the early 40's, it noted that it expected them to last until at least 1975...which they could have done if the Missabe hadn't chosen to dieselize.

 

[andrechapelon]

Your subtraction of a likely build date took you to 1933-34, the height of the depression.  Were very many freight locomotives being built then?  I know a few notable locomotive innovations were made then but weren't they deliberately notable? attempts to do something spectacular to generate excitement and, hopefully, a little business? 

 

IIRC, there were no locomotives manufactured by the 3 major steam builders in 1933 due to the depression. NKP's first 2-8-4's came in 1934, B&M's first P-4 class 4-6-2's came out in 1934 and NP A-2 4-8-4's. There may have been more, but those are the ones I remember.

 Andre

 

[marknewton]

Admiral, the Kato model is of a USRA heavy 2-8-2. The design dates from 1918, although the majority weren't delivered until 1919-20. Later, after the USRA was disbanded, many railroads bought copies of these engines, and many remained in service until the 1950s. Try googling on the locomtive type, and pay particular attention to roads like the W&LE, CB&Q, FW&D, CNJ and Erie, all of whom operated these engines late in the US steam era.

Typical modifications to engines running in the 50s would include feedwater heaters, stokers, trailing truck boosters, dual air pumps on the pilot deck, low water alarms, altered valve gear, and enlarged tenders. The Kato model is of a stock USRA engine as built. It would be most unlikely to find one running in the 50s unmodified.

Your assumption of an 18-year economic life for a steam loco is way too short. When I was an apprentice boilermaker in 1975, I was working on some 0-6-0s built in 1877 and 1879, still in regular service!



Later I was responsible for a group of 2-8-2Ts dating from 1914, which were still in service in 1988.



An 18 year-old steam engine is just barely run-in!

Cheers,

Mark.

[orsonroy]

I am currenty modeling the East bay/Sacramento Delta region of the country ca. 1950. N-scale. One of the four Railroad Companies the (BC & CS) is a free lanced effort.

That Railroad is almost finished converting to D/E engines but a few Steamers still remain. Mikados's (B&O kato's, mostly)

Question, Assuming these relics still operate what would one look like if it was bought say in 1933-34? (I assume for a Steamer to be still reliable & still cost effective to maintain it can't be older than 18 years or so)

You assume incorrectly. Assuming that an engine was maintained properly and rebuilt a few times, a boiler (what makes a steam emgine an "engine") should have a life expectancy of 40 years. Most steamers built had lifetimes of 25-30 years, and were used up by that time (roads that rebuilt their fleets extensively like the IC could expect 40-45 years from their engines. When the IC retired their last steamers in 1960, they had engines that were built in 1906 still on the roster as active engines!)

As to what they looked like, that all depends on the railroad that bought them, when they were bought used by the shortline, and what the operational philosophy of the shortline was. Shortlines rarely bought new engines, and rarely had quality engineering departments. Small, simple, rugged and idiot proof were the watchwords for most shortlines running steam. On the other hand, large railroads added all manner of appliances to their engines to squeeze every dollar out of the foel they put into them.

The Kato Mikado is a model of a USRA heavy Mike, an engine type not rostered by the B&O (their Mikes were all significantly smaller). I'd look at either the NYC or Erie as a possible source for these engines, since the other roads that received them usually didn't resell engines on the used market (the NKP did, but they kept all of their USRA heavies until 1958).

In any event, most roads didn't extensively rebuild original USRA engines. The CB&Q added feedwater heaters, but that was about it. So you really don't have to worry about modifying (adding or removing appliances) from these engines. And as I mentioned above, shortlines liked simple engines, so they'd have usually removed things like feedwater heaters and boosters from used engines, since they were expesive to maintain (and Federal law mandated that if an appliance wasn't in working order it had to be removed). If you want a "family" look to these engines to differentiate them as belonging to the shortline, I'd modify the tenders by adding raised coal space sides and maybe a doghouse, and maybe adding a snowplow pilot to the front.

Is there a Website or Pic of an engine that is close to a B&0 Mikado (kato) that with minor alterations will give it a more correct period feel.?

No, since the B&O didn't own any USRA heavy Mikes. If you're looking for B&O Mike photos, the best place online is the Fallen Flags website:

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/bo/bo-steam.html

There are two number series for B&O Mikes: the 4100-4899, and 300-599. The larger numbers are of the older engines; the B&O renumberted their steam in the early 1950s to make way for diesel number series.

[Anonymous]

Well Thanks All, for your Input,   It's a relief that with only minor additions a Heavy Mike can be made to have a late Steam Era look.   As for their Lifetimes, I always assumed that the cost of Rebuilding the Boilers would be too expensive after 22-25 or more years of use.

See that's the kind of bad information you get  from playing Sid Mier's RAILROADS.

[gmcrail]

About the only major external appearance changes of a functional nature that would be made to a USRA Mike would be the replacement of the built-up trailing truck with a Delta cast truck, and possibly a feedwater heater of some kind (Worthington, Elesco, Coffin).  The Coffin would be the easiest to model, as the heat exchanger was often mounted inside the smokebox, and all you'd need would be a pump outside, and the appropriate boiler check valves. A minor appearance change would be the addition of a stoker motor under the cab.  (A lot easier on your firemen!)

Steam locomotives have a very long service life, if they're regularly maintained.  And many USRA locomotives, especially the Mikes, were extensively copied, well into the Twenties.   The USRA locomotive designs, were, IMHO, one of the few examples historically of the government doing something really right.  They were certainly the most esthetically pleasing designs overall for entire classes of locomotives - again, IMHO.

[markpierce]

 

 I am currenty modeling the East bay/Sacramento Delta region of the country ca. 1950. N-scale

One of the four Railroad Companies the (BC & CS) is a free lanced effort.

That Railroad is almost finished converting to D/E engines but a few Steamers

still remain. Mikados's (B&O kato's, mostly)

Question, Assuming these relics still operate what would one look like if it was bought say in

1933-34 ? (I assume for a Steamer to be still reliable & still cost effective to maintain it can't be older than 18 years or so)

Is there a Website or Pic of an engine that is close to a B&0 Mikado (kato) that with minor alterations will give it a more correct period feel.?

Modeling the Berkely,Concord & Central Sierra RR   ca. 1950

An operational life of 18 years?  We've all seen steam locomotives over 100 years old still in operation.  It wasn't unusual for steam locomotives to serve for 40 to 50 years.  If they were maintained and occasionally rebuilt (and this would assume the locomotive was useful in a cost-effective way to the railroad's operations) they would continue to operate indefinitely.  Many of SP's Mikes made in the teens and twenties were operational until the mid-1950s.  SPs much older 2-6-0s, and 2-8-0s also ran until the end of the steam era. 

Mark

[West Coast S]

Your line must be affluent beyond means, most shortlines would purchase obsolete power from local roads or for the right price, The SP General Shops would custom build,, but using available resources and techniques, thus general construction principles of that road would apply, thus if a former SP engine it should be recgonizable as such despite modifications. I suppose some former URSA Mikes could have escaped west, being well designed 50 years of service would not be a stretch, given some modifications and upgrading along the way. Of course conversion to oil is a must, but otherwise maybe a upgraded feedwater heater should about do it, also the bolted and assembled as built trailing truck was often replaced with a solid cast Delta type.

Best of luck

Dave 

[andrechapelon]

Your line must be affluent beyond means, most shortlines would purchase obsolete power from local roads or for the right price, The SP General Shops would custom build,, but using available resources and techniques, thus general construction principles of that road would apply, thus if a former SP engine it should be recgonizable as such despite modifications. I suppose some former URSA Mikes could have escaped west, being well designed 50 years of service would not be a stretch, given some modifications and upgrading along the way. Of course conversion to oil is a must, but otherwise maybe a upgraded feedwater heater should about do it, also the bolted and assembled as built trailing truck was often replaced with a solid cast Delta type.

Best of luck

Dave 

Why bother with SP? The Western Pacific actually had USRA Heavy 2-8-2's. Here's a picture of WP #310. Note the Elesco FWH and oil bunker in tender as well as the altered tender for greater water capacity. http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/WP310.JPG

WP #307 in 1936: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/WP307.JPG

Different view, same engine: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/WP307B.JPG

WP #306: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/WP306B.JPG

Andre 

 

[West Coast S]

Your line must be affluent beyond means, most shortlines would purchase obsolete power from local roads or for the right price, The SP General Shops would custom build,, but using available resources and techniques, thus general construction principles of that road would apply, thus if a former SP engine it should be recgonizable as such despite modifications. I suppose some former URSA Mikes could have escaped west, being well designed 50 years of service would not be a stretch, given some modifications and upgrading along the way. Of course conversion to oil is a must, but otherwise maybe a upgraded feedwater heater should about do it, also the bolted and assembled as built trailing truck was often replaced with a solid cast Delta type.

Best of luck

Dave 

Why bother with SP? The Western Pacific actually had USRA Heavy 2-8-2's. Here's a picture of WP #310. Note the Elesco FWH and oil bunker in tender as well as the altered tender for greater water capacity. http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/WP310.JPG

WP #307 in 1936: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/WP307.JPG

Different view, same engine: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/WP307B.JPG

WP #306: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/WP306B.JPG

Andre 

 

I had forgotten about the WP , even used them in passenger service, UP also had some light examples, don't know for sure if they strayed from Nebraska or kansas during their operating life

[selector]

These three sites have an abundance of information for you in archival photo form.  Just look for links to type, wheel arrangement, or to the railroads offering the most promise for you in the alphabetical listinsg (be sure to distinguish in the fallenflags, once you click on your road, between diesel and steam when that sub-link scrolls into view).

 

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/

http://www.railarchive.net/bakervalve/index.html

http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/

 

[Sperandeo]

As others have written, most of all 2-8-2s were built in the 1910s and 1920s, and that's certainly true of the three Class 1 railroads that used Mikados in the East Bay/Delta area, the Southern Pacific, the Santa Fe, and the Western Pacific. Most of the upgrading such engines received on these roads was done before World War II, and in general they didn't change too much from their 1920s/1930s appearance. But all three of those railroads still had 2-8-2s at work in 1950.

The most apparent postwar changes to Mikados on the three roads were the result of the ICC requiring railroads to provide a seat for the head brakeman on freight trains. The SP and WP added small cabins – often called "doghouses" – to the tenders of many of their freight engines. The Santa Fe extended the cabs of many of its larger 2-8-2s, the 3160 and 4000 classes, by about a foot at the rear, and enlarged the rear window on the fireman's side. This was enough to make room for two seats on the left side of the cab, with the brakeman riding behind the fireman. On the engineer's side, the rear cab window remained the same, but the extra length of the cab behind that window is apparent when you know what to look for.

So long,

Andy